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Is there now a generation of users who never worked with files?

blog.hyperknot.com

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Re: Is there now a generation of users who never worked with files?

#41

Post by solardev »

hyperknot wrote: post #40

Author here, I'll try to collect my thoughts into one comment here about why there is no auto-save. If you implement auto-save, users will expect every click/keystroke to be saved, like how Google Docs does it. Simply adding a 1-minute timer will make people lose work in the last minute, as they switch tabs, go offline, etc. and forget about it for days, when the browser clears tab state. The other reason is that the…

> Short story: there is no Undo-Redo.

OK, fair enough, but that doesn't have to preclude autosaving.

> If you implement auto-save, users will expect every click/keystroke to be saved. [...] Simply adding a 1-minute timer will make people lose work in the last minute.

I think a nicer compromise might be a simple debounced isDirty state. If it detects any changes, wait 5 or 10 seconds. If any more changes happen in that same time, wait again (up to some sane max, like a min or few). If no further changes, create a new automatic checkpoint.

It's usually not a big deal if someone loses 10 seconds of work. It is if they lose a few hours.

> Save button plays the role of making a checkpoint, trying out something, reverting if needed. With autosave this could be ruined.

Only if you make the autosave overwrite user checkpoints. Can't they produce their own separate bin of autosave checkpoints? Word has done that for decades, as have video games.

The user can choose to revert to "Blahblah save (10/31/24)" or "Autosave (3 min ago)".

Even if it is a generational thing, it's also just good UX IMO.

Re: Is there now a generation of users who never worked with files?

#42

Post by hyperknot »

solardev wrote: post #41
hyperknot wrote: post #40

Author here, I'll try to collect my thoughts into one comment here about why there is no auto-save. If you implement auto-save, users will expect every click/keystroke to be saved, like how Google Docs does it. Simply adding a 1-minute timer will make people lose work in the last minute, as they switch tabs, go offline, etc. and forget about it for days, when the browser clears tab state. The other reason is that the…

> Short story: there is no Undo-Redo. OK, fair enough, but that doesn't have to preclude autosaving. > If you implement auto-save, users will expect every click/keystroke to be saved. [...] Simply adding a 1-minute timer will make people lose work in the last minute. I think a nicer compromise might be a simple debounced isDirty state. If it detects any changes, wait 5 or 10 seconds. If any more changes happen in tha…

You are right, having two buckets is probably the easiest way to solve this. Then when loading the page it'd ask what to do with the autosave version.

Re: Is there now a generation of users who never worked with files?

#43

Post by solardev »

hyperknot wrote: post #42
solardev wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Short story: there is no Undo-Redo. OK, fair enough, but that doesn't have to preclude autosaving. > If you implement auto-save, users will expect every click/keystroke to be saved. [...] Simply adding a 1-minute timer will make people lose work in the last minute. I think a nicer compromise might be a simple debounced isDirty state. If it detects any changes, wait 5 or 10 seconds. If any more changes happen in tha…

You are right, having two buckets is probably the easiest way to solve this. Then when loading the page it'd ask what to do with the autosave version.

Thanks for considering it!

Re: Is there now a generation of users who never worked with files?

#44

Post by carlosjobim »

ghaff wrote: post #30
Brajeshwar wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, the world now wants to be autosaved. One day, you might need to look at the usage pattern and AutoSave, perhaps when idle or after a set action is done (or fall back to the default timer). Otherwise, get a checkbox/radio that turns ON/OFF the options to "Autosave."

I'm not sure I want to go back to a world where I could lose a few hours work because I didn't save my work incrementally. (That said, as others suggest, you want to have a way to say known good/useful checkpoints as well.)

There's a dialog asking if you really want to quit without saving your work.

Re: Is there now a generation of users who never worked with files?

#45

Post by NamTaf »

donatj wrote: post #8

I don't understand why the author believes auto save would be so difficult to implement. Just automatically click the save button for the user on a one minute timer. Done. setInterval(() => { document.getElementById("save-button")?.click(); }, 60000);

This is a classic xkcd workflow comic moment: https://xkcd.com/1172/

Re: Is there now a generation of users who never worked with files?

#46

Post by ghaff »

carlosjobim wrote: post #44
ghaff wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I want to go back to a world where I could lose a few hours work because I didn't save my work incrementally. (That said, as others suggest, you want to have a way to say known good/useful checkpoints as well.)

There's a dialog asking if you really want to quit without saving your work.

If you used programs like Lotus back in the day, you'd realize that that you tended to develop muscle memory to just quit in many cases. You also had crashes that kept you from saving as well.

Re: Is there now a generation of users who never worked with files?

#47

Post by gvx »

hyperknot wrote: post #18
gvx wrote: post #5

I work with files every day, and I'm not sure I would have realised I'd needed to save manually with the original MapHub UI either. A web-based interface that looks like that, I expect it to be transparent. If it'd had three icons (the classic blank page, open folder and floppy disk) in the top left, then I'd assume it would need manual saving. (I'm not saying that's what you need to do, just analysing my own intuiti…

The interesting bit is that for years this wasn't a problem. Like for 5 years I got 0 support requests about missing Save. Also web apps were not auto-saving traditionally, many of them still don't do it today. Update, answered in detail here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42016231

It's very possible that if you showed me the MapHub UI eight years ago, I'd have intuited that I'd need to save manually---I can't tell for sure. I am definitely aware that the way I engage with software nowadays is very different than when I started using computers in the early 2000s, and I don't doubt it is still evolving due to the changing conventions in UI and functionality.

Re: Is there now a generation of users who never worked with files?

#48

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

dmurray wrote: post #39
bulatb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autosaving means you often save a state the user didn't want to save, sometimes one they wanted not to save, erasing one they probably wanted to keep as a savepoint. You can give them back the point-in-time or known-state recovery with manual snapshots or history tracking, but now your data system has to support that.

Lots of apps implement this by autosaving to a different location from the manual save. So autosaves overwrite each other, but they don't overwrite the user's explicit choice. On loading a save, if they detect the autosave is more recent than the manual save, they offer the user the choice of which one to use. Microsoft Word has had this since the 90s (with slightly different presentation from today, and definitely w…

Exactly. The original problem was "people are losing all of their work cause they're not saving." So you autosave every minute or so to a separate "recovery" location, then if the user exits without manually saving, on next startup you give them the option to continue from the last autosave if that autosave is more recent and not identical to the last manual save. Doesn't require full change logging, and only requires one "last autosave" at any given time. IIRC this is how your Word example from the 90s worked.

Re: Is there now a generation of users who never worked with files?

#49

Post by makeitdouble »

hyperknot wrote: post #40

Author here, I'll try to collect my thoughts into one comment here about why there is no auto-save. If you implement auto-save, users will expect every click/keystroke to be saved, like how Google Docs does it. Simply adding a 1-minute timer will make people lose work in the last minute, as they switch tabs, go offline, etc. and forget about it for days, when the browser clears tab state. The other reason is that the…

Disclaimer: I am not familiar with the product, so created a MapHub account just to try the exact experience. I usually mostly work with hiking maps and planning hikes, so my viewpoint might be off.

I feel the base disconnect is MapHub having very few indication of a workflow: one can create a new map and start working on it in a matter of seconds, adding markers etc. is also relatively quick, with help on the right panel guiding through the option, so it all feels natural.

In contrast the Save button is next to the zoom in/zoom out button, so outside of the tools area, neither in the right or left blocks where one would focus when editing.

The button is also greyed out when starting a map, and will always be visibly present, so after a few minutes I think we learn to ignore it as a visual element. In particular I never use the zoom in/out button (right now I straight pinch on the screen, but I guess touchpad pinch to zoom also works?)

I feel like the UI is really optimized for being out of the way and not having to think about versions. If autosaves are not an option, I think the save button would benefit from being a more "actiony" button and perhaps have a more prominent sibling in one of the tools or editing panel (and probably not just "save" but "save this map" or "take snapshot" or something like that ?)

My favorite map app has a big dark "Save" in a permanent footer inside the edit lists, and I better understand the reason now.

Re: Is there now a generation of users who never worked with files?

#50

Post by Ferret7446 »

tempfile wrote: post #37
hyperknot wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key is Undo-Redo information is lost. On Google Docs you can "time-travel" almost on a keystroke level, so that's when auto-save makes sense. Update, answered in detail here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42016231

I think you are exaggerating the importance of undo/redo. Even in google docs, if you restore from a savepoint you can only go backwards. And besides, the complaints OP got were "I'm losing all my work" - I doubt someone who had some recovery point would be in a worse position to recover than someone who had no recovery point at all. (in other words, it's not necessary at all to support this feature from the ground u…

Well, going forward is undefined (i.e., redo history loss), unless you implement "linearized" history [1], which anecdotally is very confusing for most people.

[1]: https://www.felesatra.moe/blog/2019/08/04/emacs-undo

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