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Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

blog.godfreyai.com

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Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#41

Post by collingreen »

This article is a roller coaster of the authors very mixed emotions and thoughts. It hits all the b-school tropes from "workers should be grateful for their employers not the other way around" to "retention is waste" while also saying how valuable engineering is and how the best companies they worked for had leaders that came with the exact mindset being attacked here. Add in a little "see how good of a writer I am" thrown in for flavor. The structured abuse makes the short blips of "I'm trying to help you" feel hollow and tacked on in response to someone's feedback on an early draft.

The funny bit is the article completely understands the problems, it just makes all the wrong conclusions. Aside from a "workers should be property" vibe, the author very clearly identified that modern business leaders think of engineering as magic, aren't taught anything about it in business school, and can't be bothered to learn about it. It is an absolutely bonkers idea that anyone running a software company doesn't need to know even the basic ideas underpinning their software.

Maybe, as an engineer, I have a very different view of what "leadership" is but this gives me the same feeling as an entitled kid inheriting dads business and being angry about the salary of the senior folks that make it work without even stopping to consider why they might make what they make or if it is a good deal.

Unfortunately there are lots of people who think and act this way. The author is right in some ways because of it - there will always be people who see someone getting paid well but don't understand the value of it and their response will be to try to knock them down a peg instead of trying to understand the why.

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#42

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

zb1plus wrote: post #15

The further I go into my career, the more see the it the opposite way. I think business people are overvalued compared with most software engineers. If software engineers take the time to learn the "business", they can build their own companies that eclipse those started by the typical MBAs who view engineers as "pampered and coddled" cost centers. I think after the bubble pops, we'll see new companies that led by en…

As long as those engineers are willing to do mostly sales and marketing, I would agree with you.

Otherwise probably not, sadly.

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#43

Post by ARandomerDude »

ckmiaomix wrote: post #28
rKarpinski wrote: post #10

"Engineers have been spoiled rotten for the last two decades[...] employers offered unlimited PTO" In what world does unlimited PTO spoil engineers? It removes the companies liability for vacation days and shames employees into taking less time off.

Author here! Came when I saw my Substack blowing up. This isn't to imply that engineers are universally treated well, but that RELATIVE to other workers, they held far more bargaining power and faced better working conditions across the board. Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO. There's probably something broader to be said re: this point on bargaining power of work…

Are bargaining power and working conditions better or different? For example, school teachers have lower pay but they also have substantially more time off than I ever will.

There are several nurses in my extended family, and they frequently work 3 crazy days and then are off for the next 4 days. There is no way I could routinely take off 4 days in a week as a software dev. The flip side is the 3 days they work are likely even more stressful than my job, since I don't run the risk of accidentally killing someone.

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#44

Post by maerF0x0 »

aftbit wrote: post #27

IMO, these layoffs are not caused by AI or because Google suddenly doesn't need engineers. Instead, we're seeing at least four effects collide: 1. Growth can't last forever. Big tech is moving from an exponential phase to a sigmoidal one. Expect to see less spending and more focus on efficiency. It takes fewer people to keep the profit engine going than it does to build something totally new from the beginning. 2. Wh…

> Big tech is moving from an exponential phase to a sigmoidal one.

I'd propose a modification of "Big Tech" to "Ad Tech" or "Marketing Tech".

There's still exponential growth available in nascent or underdeployed technologies -- AR/VR, blockchain/crypto applications (beyond just ICO), AI, IoT, Autonomous machines (maybe that's AI to you), are a few that come to mind. I'd wager the next "Google" will be in one of those, OpenAI may already be it.

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#45

Post by snarf21 »

ckmiaomix wrote: post #28
rKarpinski wrote: post #10

"Engineers have been spoiled rotten for the last two decades[...] employers offered unlimited PTO" In what world does unlimited PTO spoil engineers? It removes the companies liability for vacation days and shames employees into taking less time off.

Author here! Came when I saw my Substack blowing up. This isn't to imply that engineers are universally treated well, but that RELATIVE to other workers, they held far more bargaining power and faced better working conditions across the board. Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO. There's probably something broader to be said re: this point on bargaining power of work…

Yeah, you are missing the point. Yes, tech are treated better than garbage workers but the question is about the specific concept of "unlimited" PTO.

The "unlimited" is a anti-benefit. Just like free dry-cleaning at the office. Besides the tax implications others have mentioned, there is the mental loss aversion. People who used to have 4 weeks of vacation that are use it or lose it would always take every single day.

Making it unlimited means that in practice, engineers take less than what they used to get because the portal doesn't list how many days they have left. At my current job, a co-worker was questioned heavily about why he needed to take more than 4 weeks vacation despite the fact we have "unlimited". (2 of the weeks he used were because he moved cross country so not an every year kind of event or abuse).

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#46

Post by Vegenoid »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #21

> Are engineers a bunch of spoiled, overpaid geeks who were long overdue for a reckoning? will no one rid me of these meddlesome engineers? ever since tech took off in business the C-suite has resented developers: we are overpaid relative to the other peons, we talk back and, above all else, we are physically ugly first it was outsourcing, now it's AI and yet, despite it all, the codemonkey abides

People are always convinced that new and better software will reduce our need for software engineers, but the contradiction is plain to see. While AI could potentially be different, I am extremely doubtful that integrating AI into everything will mean we need less devs.

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#47

Post by collingreen »

ckmiaomix wrote: post #32
Salgat wrote: post #12

And here I am thinking the rest of the workforce needs to be treated better, rather than using how poorly the rest of the workforce is treated as the ideal example to go by.

Hi! Author here - that's actually...kinda the point. The good treatment you mentioned doesn't organically happen. Your leaders have to fight for it and maintain it. And eng leaders...just aren't in the fight right now. If good eng leaders actually stepped up and brought the ethos of enabling creativity, autonomy, and well-being to the rest of the org, everyone would be in a better place.

That point did not come through AT ALL. Your article reads like the exact opposite - it has nothing about encouraging engineering leaders to spread humane work environments to other departments or even a suggestion that people deserve it. You called engineers "spoiled rotten".

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#48

Post by bluepizza »

ckmiaomix wrote: post #37
15155 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO. Is "unlimited PTO" a good thing?

Buddy...the point is really, really not unlimited PTO. NO ONE treated workers at scale like Google did in earlier decades. It was literally wild and unprecedented. Engineers for many decades had unprecedented job mobility and bargaining power. Certainly not a bad thing in and of itself, but it's an outlier experience that's ending. Unfortunately, companies don't organically and spontaneously decide to treat their wor…

You seem to be missing a lot of data points. From Microsoft to even Jack Welch's GE, absolutely everyone who was competitive was trying to butter up talent.

And then you affirm things such as "unprecedented job mobility", for which citation is sorely needed, and close it with "it's ending", though there is absolutely no evidence for it.

It seems to me that you are trying to ignite some flames, but your points are very thin on data.

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#49

Post by [deleted] »

closeparen wrote: post #39

Developers as people are happiest when productive. A company can say you need to sit in the useless meetings, write the TPS reports, use the shitty desktop, and wait 12 weeks for IT approval to update packages like everyone else because this is the grown up world and you’re not special. This might be a social status regulation play, but crucially it’s not an efficiency or cost saving play. Developers like forward pro…

[deleted]

Re: Dear CTO: it's not 2015 anymore

#50

Post by inerte »

ckmiaomix wrote: post #28
rKarpinski wrote: post #10

"Engineers have been spoiled rotten for the last two decades[...] employers offered unlimited PTO" In what world does unlimited PTO spoil engineers? It removes the companies liability for vacation days and shames employees into taking less time off.

Author here! Came when I saw my Substack blowing up. This isn't to imply that engineers are universally treated well, but that RELATIVE to other workers, they held far more bargaining power and faced better working conditions across the board. Most companies outside of the tech bubble don't even have the concept of unlimited PTO. There's probably something broader to be said re: this point on bargaining power of work…

The spirit of what you're saying is correct, and you just need to find better examples.

More than half of anyone working on a tech company is not an engineer. So don't say "engineers get better treatment than other workers", just any employee in tech.

And afaik the data on companies that have unlimited PTO is that their employees actually take LESS time off. So it looks good on paper, but in effect does the opposite.

Still, you're right, tech workers have it easy compared to most other jobs, including a lot of other office workers (mostly due to better pay and benefits)

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