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The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#41

Post by mihaic »

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population.

After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preservation. The global cultural value it adds is much larger than individual museums all over the would could provide.

> Marieke van Bommel, director general of the National Museum of World Cultures, tells the New York Times’ Lynsey Chutel that “the thief cannot tell the rightful owners what to do with their property.”

And in the meantime the academic establishment seem to ignore doing what's best for the artefacts or the public. Abused children are taken away from their parents, but artefact are to simply be given back to whatever state has jurisdiction over some area they were in way back?

There seems to not be a simple answer on when things should be given back or not, but at least some effort should be put into figuring out some triage criteria.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#42

Post by ckuehne »

isodev wrote: post #6
notpushkin wrote: post #3

> While some critics of repatriation have raised concerns over how poorer countries will care for their returned artifacts, Marieke van Bommel, director general of the National Museum of World Cultures, tells the New York Times’ Lynsey Chutel that “the thief cannot tell the rightful owners what to do with their property.” But the government of the country the artifacts are being returned into isn’t the rightful owner…

> isn’t the rightful owner. And who is qualified to determine the "rightful owner"? The current government of the nation from which the items were taken is the one in charge of policy regarding their cultural and historical artefacts.

There is no "nation from which the items were taken".

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#43

Post by bpodgursky »

bee_rider wrote: post #32
trwhite wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- the artifact is likely to be seen by significantly more people and serves a much greater purpose to expose/educate those people (from other cultures) to/about the culture from which it came

That seems more like a judgement call that should be made by the legitimate owners of the artifacts (I liked in the other comment, that there was a focus on the problem of figuring out who the legitimate owners were, and the practicalities of getting them the artifacts).

The legitimate owners died a long time ago.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#44

Post by TeaBrain »

soco wrote: post #20
umvi wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but it gets absurd if enough time passes. "Your ancestors wronged my ancestors 1000 years ago, so now modern you owes modern me"

Yes, and repay it by giving back said object. Egypt or those countries didn't ask for rent or back payments so let's stop imagining strawmen.

Repay what? The people of modern Egypt have no connection or inheritance claim to the ancient artifacts, other than their having been created in a similar place where the modern Egyptians are currently living. They don't even share a remotely similar culture. The same is true of many other places that had their artifacts collected, in that the people have no legal claim to the artifacts other than their having existed in a place in time nor do they often have any shared culture with the people who created the artifacts.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#45

Post by chx »

mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@rygorous/113219189748801451

> art project idea: "The British Museum", which is housed somewhere outside the UK and will accept and display any donations from anonymous donors into its collection that were provably stolen from Great Britain

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#46

Post by beaglessss »

aithrowawaycomm wrote: post #38
notpushkin wrote: post #3

> While some critics of repatriation have raised concerns over how poorer countries will care for their returned artifacts, Marieke van Bommel, director general of the National Museum of World Cultures, tells the New York Times’ Lynsey Chutel that “the thief cannot tell the rightful owners what to do with their property.” But the government of the country the artifacts are being returned into isn’t the rightful owner…

Many artifacts were stolen from legitimate kingdoms / village councils / etc that no longer exist, so for these artifacts returning it to the corresponding modern government is fairly appropriate. Otherwise, unless there is a clear claim of individual/familial ownership vis descendancy, then returning artifacts to a legal national government is still a least bad option. In this case the artifact belongs to the people…

Would make sense imo to auction them to the highest bidder and distribute it to the heirs. Or give the heirs shares of a corporation that holds the artifact.

I'm not sure about Indonesia government but I'm confident if my forefathers made artifacts and it got 'returned' to US gov what would happen is a bunch of rich city dwellers would get to see it in an exhibit somewhere, some director will see a fat salary and meanwhile I have no share or compensation nor practical ability to access the artifact.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#47

Post by bilbo0s »

chx wrote: post #45
mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@rygorous/113219189748801451 > art project idea: "The British Museum", which is housed somewhere outside the UK and will accept and display any donations from anonymous donors into its collection that were provably stolen from Great Britain

Well, in fairness, Britain would have the right to demand the artifacts be returned.

Please don't shoot the messenger here. I'm just saying hypocrisy doesn't negate legal rights. I'm American, so no dog in the fight, but the UK would have the right to take those artifacts back.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#48

Post by danparsonson »

tetris11 wrote: post #35
thinkingtoilet wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should be thankful the British stole it!

Honestly, of all the empires that could have stolen I'm glad it was the British. Cruel, destabilizing, more atrocities than any other empire, but somehow the royal class had a culture of conservation for (some) wildlife and historical artefacts.

They had/have a culture of conserving wealth. Attractive gardens and foreign treasures are just conspicuous displays of wealth.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#49

Post by satvikpendem »

Perhaps not necessarily in this case, but something I do think about is, are not certain artifacts safer in the museums that can take care of them for future generations? There are many unstable countries in the world where that cannot happen, and I would want artifacts not destroyed due to wars or other sorts of fighting such as terrorism [0] such that future generations can see them. That is why I am not necessarily opposed to so called colonial governments continuing to hold on to relics, as the British Museum has stated.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/26/isis-fighters-...

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