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NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

simonwillison.net

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Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#41

NotebookLM's is incredibly good at generating the affect and structure of a quality podcast. This is in-line with all art, music, and video created by LMM at the moment. They are imitating a structure and affect, the quality of the content is largely irrelevant. I think the interesting thing is that most people don't really care, and AI is not to blame for that. Most books published today have the affect of a book, b…

But why would I buy those books or listen to those podcasts that are synthetic affectations of no substance?

In the case of those books and podcasts, who cares if you read or listen to them? The point is that the books are sold and make the right lists. The point is that the podcasts are downloaded so ads can be sold or that vanity numbers can be reported.

In terms of such music and films (whether created by human or AI) sometimes it's just because we are social creatures and need shared experiences to talk with others about.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#42
I was building out something along these lines and the voice was just rubbish (I mean, sounded fine for one short episode but won't on the 20th episode) at the time, so postponed to focus on more near-term goals. But the variation in voices here is quite a bit better, and will improve. You know this is going to be a thing.

There are still some extremely challenging/interesting problems to make it not terrible. This is where we get to invent the future.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#43

This is impressive from a technical point of view and probably useful from an educational one; I really like the idea that a piece of text can be transformed into any kind of media format easily, depending on your preferences. As recently as a year ago I was using Apple’s text to speech tool to listen to Wikipedia articles while biking, and needless to say, they weren’t very exciting to listen to. But I don’t think i…

> But I don’t think it’s much of a threat to actual podcasts, which tend to be successful because of the personalities of the hosts and guests, and not because of the information they contain. I wonder if any “blended” podcasts will pop up, where a human host uses a tool like this for an artificial cohost.

Latent Space AI Engineering podcast does this with an AI cohost; mostly for intros and segues. A recent episode used it to summarise a Twitter AMA and while it’s usually used to good effect, that one was one of the first episodes the quality of the co host part was lacking, as it mispronounced things, and was a bit muddled in parts. That said, the podcast has been an incredibly useful and insightful regular listen for me.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#44

This is impressive from a technical point of view and probably useful from an educational one; I really like the idea that a piece of text can be transformed into any kind of media format easily, depending on your preferences. As recently as a year ago I was using Apple’s text to speech tool to listen to Wikipedia articles while biking, and needless to say, they weren’t very exciting to listen to. But I don’t think i…

I think something like a Socratic dialog option would be useful as well.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#45

NotebookLM's is incredibly good at generating the affect and structure of a quality podcast. This is in-line with all art, music, and video created by LMM at the moment. They are imitating a structure and affect, the quality of the content is largely irrelevant. I think the interesting thing is that most people don't really care, and AI is not to blame for that. Most books published today have the affect of a book, b…

I think and hope that you're wrong. There's always been cheese, and there's a lot of it now. But there is still a market for top-notch insight.

For example, Perun. This guy delivers an hourlong presentation on (mostly) the Ukraine-Russia war and its pure quality. Insights, humour, excellent delivery, from what seems to be a military-focused economist/analyst/consultant. We're a while away from some bot taking this kind of thing over.

https://www.youtube.com/@PerunAU

Or hardcore history. The robots will get there, but it's going to take a while.

https://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#46

NotebookLM's is incredibly good at generating the affect and structure of a quality podcast. This is in-line with all art, music, and video created by LMM at the moment. They are imitating a structure and affect, the quality of the content is largely irrelevant. I think the interesting thing is that most people don't really care, and AI is not to blame for that. Most books published today have the affect of a book, b…

I thought this was a great, insightful comment, but noodling over it a little more made me think it's not just content producers who are responsible for this "quality vacuousness" epidemic.

I think this is just partly an inevitable consequence of going from "content scarcity" to our new normal of "content obesity" over the past 20 years or so. In this new era of an overwhelming amount of content, it's just natural to compare it all against each other, e.g. to essentially "optimize" it to the "best" form, but in doing that we've fallen into a homogeneity, and the resulting lack of variation is an actual lowering of quality in and of itself.

2 examples to explain what I mean:

1. I find that nearly all interior design (at least within broad styles) looks basically the same to me now. It's all got that "minimalist, muted tones but with a touch of organic coziness and one or two pops of color" look to it. Honestly, I don't know how interior designers even exist today, when it's trivial to go to Houzz or any of a million websites and say "yes, like this". A while back I was complaining online somewhere that I thought all interior design looked similar where in the past there was much more interesting variation, and somebody insightful replied that it's not really that interior design is now just the same, it's that it's really just converged. People can easily see and compare a million designs against each other, so there is much less of a chance for that green shag carpet to even get a moment in the sun.

2. I was recently on vacation and decided I wanted to read a "classic" book, so I read Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises (I'm not sure why I never had to read that in high school). Nearly throughout the entire book I couldn't help but thinking "Is there any time this book stops sucking?" I hated the entire thing - it was like being forced to watch someone's vacation photos for twelve hours straight, and I kept wondering why there never seemed to be any attempt to actually make me give a shit about any of the characters in the book, as nearly every one of them I found insufferable and wondered how they each had about 3 or 4 livers to spare. But I do understand that Hemingway's writing style was unique and original at the time, and that he was doing something new and interesting that influenced American literature for a long time. But these days, given the flood of content, it feels like most attempts at doing something "new and interesting" are not only forced, but nearly impossible given that there are a million other people also trying to do new and interesting things that now have the means to disseminate them. I don't think a book like The Sun Also Rises, where I believe the main impact was the style of writing/dialogue vs the actual story, could ever break through today.

I guess my point with this long post is that I think the "loss of quality" in content that many of us sense is just a direct result of there being so much content that we see variations from the "ideal" as worse, where in the past we may have found them interesting.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why would I buy those books or listen to those podcasts that are synthetic affectations of no substance?

In the case of those books and podcasts, who cares if you read or listen to them? The point is that the books are sold and make the right lists. The point is that the podcasts are downloaded so ads can be sold or that vanity numbers can be reported. In terms of such music and films (whether created by human or AI) sometimes it's just because we are social creatures and need shared experiences to talk with others abou…

But knowing it's synthetic, why would you buy the book or listen to the podcast in the first place? There's nothing social or shared in a synthetic affectation.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#48
post #22
post #17

This is amazing. I uploaded the instruction manual for a Scholander pressure chamber (a piece of equipment for measuring plant moisture stress) and made a podcast from it. The information in the podcast was accurate, it included some light banter and jokes, while still getting across the important topics in the instructions. I don't know what I would use a podcast like this for, but the fact that something like this…

Yeah I totally get people’s criticisms that the podcasts aren’t quite human-expert-level in terms of symbolic reasoning, but this still blows my mind. The intuitive skill these show, not to mention the ability to accurately (again, if shallowly) parse and transform huge bodies of content in seconds is absolutely scary, IMO. I’d feed it the Singularity paper, but I’m not sure I need that extra boost of anxiety these d…

This isn't "quite expert-level in terms of symbolic reasoning" in the same way as a soapbox isn't "quite a formula 1"

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#49
post #2

I just made a podcast episode about my company where I work by giving it the website. It was surprisingly realistic. It also made me realize how empty many podcasts actually are. I sent it to my colleagues telling them I "had it produced." I'll reveal the truth tomorrow.

Don't do this. A friend did this to me, and after listening to it, I suddenly realized it was AI vomit. My friend wasted an hour of my attention, and I didn't appreciate it.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#50

OK, this is pretty amazing, but is there a "Valley Girl" setting in NotebookLM somewhere? In the sample given in this article, both of the "podcasters" had to add a "like", like every 5 seconds. I couldn't take it: > this tech is just like leaps and bounds of where it was yesterday like we're watching it go from just spitting out words to like...

Just my thought. I think to be actually useful, the model needs to allow the user to customize the flow of conversation to some extent.

In its current version, this causes so much cultural dissonance that it’s very difficult for me to listen.

At least to me the “hosts” appear to actively signal lack of competence in the field they are talking about.

Given that they are generated that is off course nonsense.

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