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Linear, symmetric, self-selecting 14-bit molecular memristors (2023)

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Re: Linear, symmetric, self-selecting 14-bit molecular memristors (2023)

#41

Post by hwillis »

fragmede wrote: post #39
hwillis wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't. We have been trying[1]; humans are genuinely shocking in this way. Mechanical systems should have so many advantages over humans; springs are 10x better than tendons, motors are 3x better than muscles. It's possible humans evolved walking as a predatory tactic . Even if we develop a super-efficient walking robot, humans are efficient at several speeds, and keep that efficiency while varying their stride a…

A very select group has tried for not very long, but I think the most gains in efficiency are going to come from giving bipedal robots rollerblades.

Absolutely correct, evolution will never ever beat a 10 cent ABEC-7 bearing. Skateboards really changed manufacturing by making a specific size of wildly precise bearing incredibly cheap. One day a robot will be able to step directly onto ice skates, but meanwhile I'm looking forward to the blooper reel because it's gonna be funny as hell

Re: Linear, symmetric, self-selecting 14-bit molecular memristors (2023)

#43

Post by mapt »

chc4 wrote: post #33
myrmidon wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or have memristors just proven to be a 'boring' technology that's just quietly replaced other bits and pieces that we don't hear about? As far as I know, they have no application apart from academic toy/reseearch subject right now. And you have to consider that there are a lot of niches for storage technology that they could have taken over (because there is a lot of tradeoffs to make, e.g. latency, bandwidth, pers…

I'm under the impression Intel's 3D XPoint/Optane memory was based off the same process used for memristors.

This was always a strange point of contention - Intel denied using memristors. I assume there were some sort of patent or trademark issues.

WP:

"Development of 3D XPoint began around 2012.[8] Intel and Micron had developed other non-volatile phase-change memory (PCM) technologies previously;[note 1] Mark Durcan of Micron said 3D XPoint architecture differs from previous offerings of PCM, and uses chalcogenide materials for both selector and storage parts of the memory cell that are faster and more stable than traditional PCM materials like GST.[10] But today, it is thought of as a subset of ReRAM.[11] According to patents a variety of materials can be used as the chalcogenide material.[12][13][14]

3D XPoint has been stated to use electrical resistance and to be bit addressable.[15] Similarities to the resistive random-access memory under development by Crossbar Inc. have been noted, but 3D XPoint uses different storage physics.[8] Specifically, transistors are replaced by threshold switches as selectors in the memory cells.[16] 3D XPoint developers indicate that it is based on changes in resistance of the bulk material.[2] Intel CEO Brian Krzanich responded to ongoing questions on the XPoint material that the switching was based on "bulk material properties".[3] Intel has stated that 3D XPoint does not use a phase-change or memristor technology,[17] although this is disputed by independent reviewers.[18]

According to reverse engineering firm TechInsights, 3D XPoint uses germanium-antimony-tellurium (GST) with low silicon content as the data storage material which is accessed by ovonic threshold switches (OTSes)[19][20] made of ternary phased selenium-germanium-silicon with arsenic doping.[21][22]"

Re: Linear, symmetric, self-selecting 14-bit molecular memristors (2023)

#44

Post by mapt »

HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #36
chc4 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm under the impression Intel's 3D XPoint/Optane memory was based off the same process used for memristors.

Yes, but they were never able to get the performance to the point where it could be used as regular memory as opposed to storage (SSD).

IIRC, performance was fantastic, but they were never able/willing to match the data density and data cost improvements in stacked-NAND flash, and without forcing themselves into the market at competitive rates, nobody wanted to write applications or design hardware suited to their unique strengths as low-latency caches.

There is still, to this day, a numerical niche for these drives, which is being served imperfectly by either normal TLC drives of very large size, SLC cache drives, or DRAM expansion cards connecting to the CPU through a PCIE bus. Just not at the prices they wanted to charge.

Re: Linear, symmetric, self-selecting 14-bit molecular memristors (2023)

#45

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

mapt wrote: post #44
HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but they were never able to get the performance to the point where it could be used as regular memory as opposed to storage (SSD).

IIRC, performance was fantastic, but they were never able/willing to match the data density and data cost improvements in stacked-NAND flash, and without forcing themselves into the market at competitive rates, nobody wanted to write applications or design hardware suited to their unique strengths as low-latency caches. There is still, to this day, a numerical niche for these drives, which is being served imperfectly…

But wasn't the potentially transformative market intended to be "persistent DRAM" for instant-on devices removing the distinction between memory and storage, requiring DRAM-like speed rather than NAND-like speed ?

I recall their early R/W speed performance projections being far faster than what they ever achieved with Optane drives.

Re: Linear, symmetric, self-selecting 14-bit molecular memristors (2023)

#46

Post by marcosdumay »

myrmidon wrote: post #2

Takes me back... There was significant hype around those things when they first managed to build them at scale (~15 years ago), because they were promising for low power, high density persistent storage and are also academically interesting: The "concept" of memristors was explored over 50 years ago (they are passive components that couple electrical charge and magnetical flux, just like a resistor does with current/…

They never promised high-density. Semiconductor memristors were always fated at staying at a much lower density than the same amount of capacitive memory. And that's before you get into the manufacturing issues and the problem that it loses "data" when read.

Those things where hyped out of nowhere, with lots of blatant lies making into the popular discourse (like that high-density prediction). I don't even know why, because nobody was making any serious bet on them. They are a very interesting design, that may still get some real-world usage (the manufacturing problems are a showstopper right now), but won't ever compete with flash.

Re: Linear, symmetric, self-selecting 14-bit molecular memristors (2023)

#47

Post by nine_k »

ants_everywhere wrote: post #22
myrmidon wrote: post #2

Takes me back... There was significant hype around those things when they first managed to build them at scale (~15 years ago), because they were promising for low power, high density persistent storage and are also academically interesting: The "concept" of memristors was explored over 50 years ago (they are passive components that couple electrical charge and magnetical flux, just like a resistor does with current/…

> if it turns out that you can not find the necessary improvements in only a single dimension, then the whole thing is kinda doomed and will probably never be competitive I don't know, we've been working on digital computers since at least the late 1800s. Sometimes technology just takes a while. That does make it hard to gamble on it if the time horizon is longer than you need to make a profit. But I don't think we s…

Regarding technology taking time: look at LEDs.

- The effect first discovered: 1907.

- First prototype device built: 1927.

- First commercially viable parts shipping: early 1960s.

- Ubiquitous and cheap as an indicator device: 1980s.

- Highly efficient, used for lighting: 2010s.

The principle never changed along the way. The specific materials changed quite a bit.

Re: Linear, symmetric, self-selecting 14-bit molecular memristors (2023)

#48

Post by marcosdumay »

hwillis wrote: post #32
DrBazza wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that actually the case? Or have memristors just proven to be a 'boring' technology that's just quietly replaced other bits and pieces that we don't hear about? A bit like graphene was supposed to be this wonder material, and now it's found in the soles of trail and hiking boots.

> graphene was supposed to be this wonder material, and now it's found in the soles of trail and hiking boots. I mean, that's not because graphene has become a routine part of our material repertoire. It has no reason to be in those things, does nothing, and is just marketing fuel. We may put "graphene" in things, but we are not much closer to using its interesting properties.

Right now, graphene is an amazing component of filters and composite materials. But only of the very expensive kinds of those.

We don't put it on a lot of things. It's expensive as hell.

Re: Linear, symmetric, self-selecting 14-bit molecular memristors (2023)

#49

Post by marcosdumay »

fragmede wrote: post #39
hwillis wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't. We have been trying[1]; humans are genuinely shocking in this way. Mechanical systems should have so many advantages over humans; springs are 10x better than tendons, motors are 3x better than muscles. It's possible humans evolved walking as a predatory tactic . Even if we develop a super-efficient walking robot, humans are efficient at several speeds, and keep that efficiency while varying their stride a…

A very select group has tried for not very long, but I think the most gains in efficiency are going to come from giving bipedal robots rollerblades.

As long as they have decent brakes... Because stairs and obstacles exist, and getting over them beats overall efficiency almost every time.

Re: Linear, symmetric, self-selecting 14-bit molecular memristors (2023)

#50

Post by mikewarot »

myrmidon wrote: post #2

Takes me back... There was significant hype around those things when they first managed to build them at scale (~15 years ago), because they were promising for low power, high density persistent storage and are also academically interesting: The "concept" of memristors was explored over 50 years ago (they are passive components that couple electrical charge and magnetical flux, just like a resistor does with current/…

I think that Memristors are perfect for use as configuration RAM for FPGAs and FPGA-like things. Something that you want to be able to update, but not frequently, and read all the time.

Of course, then the question becomes one of refreshing their state, like DRAM.

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