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The quest for a Wiki-less game

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Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#41

Post by Terr_ »

Anecdotally, I'm often looking things up when it feels like I may incur a permanent penalty for experimenting.

An example of things done right would be Deus Ex (2000): While a given character build or approach may restrict you to certain paths forward, you almost always have the opportunity to backtrack, explore, and loot to the other routes later.

In contrast, if the routes became totally inaccessible or a scripted event cleared them of useful items, then I would be more likely to consult a guide about pros and cons of the different options.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#43

Post by MEMORYC_RRUPTED »

I really enjoyed it when ConcernedApe added a journal to stardew valley: per villager it keeps track of which gifts they enjoyed. Practically it's not all that different than looking that information up on a wiki, but the fact that it is in game and integrated made the experience way more pleasant. You still have to try out a ton of items, but at least you don't have to remember which ones worked for who.

It's the same thing with open world quest markers. Nowadays, a lot of open world games give the player the option to remove quest markers outright. It's great to have that choice. But compared to, for example Morrowind, it often turns out to be an exercise in frustration, because the quests and the world haven't been designed with that in mind ("Go south from Vivec and turn left at the third tree", followed by an internal dialogue about if you should count a stump as a tree and a four hour detour is one of my best memories).

There's also this middle ground: in Ghost of Tsushima you can summon the wind as a compass to guide you to your next quest marker. Mechanically it's the exact same thing as an arrow, or line to guide you. But the fact that it's so well integrated, and thematically fitting into the game, makes my brain experience it totally differently. Not needing it would be even better, but the way they implemented it is at least pleasant.

I wish more games had a journal to keep track of things :). Why do I need notepad open, or a wiki open when playing satisfactory? If I make the effort to calculate the exact amount of iron ore I need to perfectly match my iron rod production, it'd be great if I could keep track of that in game.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#44

Post by rspoerri »

haunter wrote: post #23
rspoerri wrote: post #20

The problem is that two different systems collide (in the example of Terraria). Having an open world game and a learning curve for the things the user needs to understand to progress. Looking up informations in a wiki most often happens when the game gets boring or overly complex for the player to have fun (check Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's flow theory on that). Games that do that well, such as Zelda (which does this v…

>introduce new mechanics and scenarios in an very iterative way. By having a linear structure. A lot of games are also ruined by this handhelding style of design where 20 hours in you are still seeing tutorials

There is a balance between making a game to difficult and boring. You were likely talking a moment when the game got boring or repetitive, because you already understood the mechanics, when you encountered another gameplay tutorial explaining it.

Also games might target new players, while you might have encountered similar game mechanics before. But even then a good tutorial will make it fun, although it may be easy to solve. It's also helps to make it solvable fast if you already know the mechanics.

But still, if you add a new game mechanics 20 into a game, it is good practice to add a situation where you can learn to handle it. A good example is the gravity gun in half life, or specific features of it that only get available in the endgame.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#45

Post by an_ko »

drw85 wrote: post #38

I also think this signals a change in how games are played these days. There are many players that don't want to be challenged or explore, they want to complete tasks and get rewards. Some of them don't really care that much about the actual gameplay, as long as there is a quick way to complete sets of tasks and get their rewards. Some of my friends are like this, they blast through games without looking at anything…

Has that really changed recently? Different people have always enjoyed different things, and some don't like puzzles. That was as true a hundred years ago as now.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#46

Post by drw85 »

an_ko wrote: post #45
drw85 wrote: post #38

I also think this signals a change in how games are played these days. There are many players that don't want to be challenged or explore, they want to complete tasks and get rewards. Some of them don't really care that much about the actual gameplay, as long as there is a quick way to complete sets of tasks and get their rewards. Some of my friends are like this, they blast through games without looking at anything…

Has that really changed recently? Different people have always enjoyed different things, and some don't like puzzles. That was as true a hundred years ago as now.

Yes and No, i think modern games lead more people to be like this. Because quest markers and gps navigations and hints and creative/story modes. Also a heavy emphasis on the rewards rather than the quest.

I notice this myself when going back to older games like Final Fantasy 7 or 8 and misremembering how complex and complicated the UI, Menus and systems are.

You just get used to these things, but i also think they are a bit immersion breaking and shift the focus a lot on the destination and not the journey.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#47

Post by bilekas »

This is a funny one. I am reminded of Elite Dangerous and how such an amazing game, concept and game loop (mostly) is top tier and exactly what I was looking for. The only way to play it properly or in any way usefully is to use third party tools.

For example, markets statistics to see live market information in game for trading, you have to use a user created website.

Want to see what components will get your ship in the configuration you want ? Third party tool.

Want to plan a nice scenic route somewhere with some interesting/valuable finds on the way ? Third party tool.

Want to go mining and be in anyway profitable, maybe looking for a particular resource, you guessed it, only through a third party tool.

On one hand this has brought the community much closer together as the tools for that in game don't exists. But it's ridiculous that core gameplay loops depend on user created tools.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#48

Post by phn »

Arisaka1 wrote: post #18
seanhunter wrote: post #10

Really disagree with the hypothesis the author has, and especially don't think that the player experience is hindered (at all) by searching for things in an external wiki. Most of the games I really like (Factorio, Dwarf Fortress, Subnautica, Valheim, Satisfactory, recently Shapez2 as examples) I enjoy partly because of the active community (and wikis are obviously part of that). I love seeing solutions that other pe…

There's a category of games whose depth goes so hard that they assume engagement outside of the application, and then there's Mega Man games who were built under the assumption that the player will enjoy trial and error, and to attempt to push through making the wrong stage choice by learning how to dodge boss mechanics. I firmly believe that the internet normalized metagaming as a side-effect (guides, talk to friend…

I think Elden Ring (and the souls genre in general) IS designed with the assumption players have access to the internet to search for stuff if they want.

The game will still provide quite a challenge even if you know where you need to go and get weapons/items/etc. The bosses won't defeat themselves even if you know the overall strategy to use.

I think of it as kind of a self-regulated difficulty system, if you want to go in blind you are still free to do so.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#49

Post by yreg »

cloogshicer wrote: post #33

The game that does this best is Outer Wilds. All the information in this game is discoverable on your own, driven by curiosity.

And I think the game is so captivating that very few Outer Wilds players would let themselves be spoiled by reading the wiki unless they get absolutely stuck or after they complete the game.

Re: The quest for a Wiki-less game

#50

Post by yreg »

NotGMan wrote: post #7

Minecraft is a good counterexample to what the author wants. People look up recipes all the time on wiki and yet Minecraft is the #1 best selling game, so obviously it isn't an issue in the real world.

Minecraft is interesting in this regard since for the longest time there was no in-game recipe guide. It would be absolutely unreasonable to expect the players to figure out the crafting recipes on their own (perhaps beyond a few basic ones).

So of course everyone used a wiki from the very start. I wonder if Notch ever spoke about this and what were his thoughts. Did he design the game already with a wiki in mind? It made it problematic for new players to play offline, so there are some downsides.

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