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Removing stuff is never obvious yet often better

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Re: Removing stuff is never obvious yet often better

#41

Post by imoverclocked »

afro88 wrote: post #34
imoverclocked wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whether they are better off depends on whether they end up getting a bill they are unhappy with later at some unspecified future date, or not. How is that a function of the overly-simplified and often-wrong calculator? If the user is never there to be happy/unhappy about it in the first place, then how would you test this anyway? By closing the loop and increasing engagement, you are increasing the chance that you…

> often-wrong The author was very careful with their words: they didn't say the calculator was wrong. They said it was confusing and sensitive to small adjustments. It's likely that the same confusion and variable sensitivity exists during usage. IMHO they should have bit the bullet and revised the pricing model.

> they didn't say the calculator was wrong

Fair point. The author commented elsewhere here and stated that it's not the usage but the understanding of the variables in the calculator which are often wrong by more than 10x. From the response, it seems like the only way to know how much something will cost is to actually run a workload.

Edit: if the customer is getting a wrong-answer because of wrong-inputs, IMO, it's still a wrong-answer.

> IMHO they should have bit the bullet and revised the pricing model

I don't know enough to agree/disagree because they may be offering close to at-cost which might give better overall pricing than competitors. It's a complex-game :)

Re: Removing stuff is never obvious yet often better

#42

Post by redskyluan »

Interesting case study, but I'm skeptical of the broader implications. Pinecone is notoriously expensive compared to other vector database services. A horizontal price comparison reveals several better options in the market. Removing the calculator doesn't solve the core issue - it just obfuscates costs and makes it harder for users to compare options upfront. In my view, this approach merely reduces the comparison stage, potentially leading more uninformed users to upload data without fully understanding the pricing implications. While simplification can be valuable, in this case it seems to benefit the company more than the users. A better approach might be to improve the calculator's accuracy and usability rather than removing it entirely. Transparency in pricing is crucial, especially for B2B services where costs can scale quickly.

Re: Removing stuff is never obvious yet often better

#43

Post by jmathai »

Not only is it often better but it can literally enable you to get to market an order of magnitude faster (at with higher probability of success).

I'm working on a tool that makes running wire inside residential homes easier. It requires carving a channel on the back side of the baseboard.

My original idea required a mechanical tool with a motor [2]. We prototyped a working version of this but always felt that the manufacturing challenge would be large.

We ended up adapting the system to existing routers. That meant our product was just a series of extruded parts with almost no moving parts [1].

[1] https://trywireshark.com

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTzsU9gMF3I

Re: Removing stuff is never obvious yet often better

#44

Post by nxicvyvy »

jmathai wrote: post #43

Not only is it often better but it can literally enable you to get to market an order of magnitude faster (at with higher probability of success). I'm working on a tool that makes running wire inside residential homes easier. It requires carving a channel on the back side of the baseboard. My original idea required a mechanical tool with a motor [2]. We prototyped a working version of this but always felt that the ma…

Wireshark is a pretty bad name to choose.

Re: Removing stuff is never obvious yet often better

#45

Post by jmathai »

nxicvyvy wrote: post #44
jmathai wrote: post #43

Not only is it often better but it can literally enable you to get to market an order of magnitude faster (at with higher probability of success). I'm working on a tool that makes running wire inside residential homes easier. It requires carving a channel on the back side of the baseboard. My original idea required a mechanical tool with a motor [2]. We prototyped a working version of this but always felt that the ma…

Wireshark is a pretty bad name to choose.

Yeah - I didn't think there would be confusion with the networking tool but based on feedback we're receiving...I was wrong. We're considering options including changing the name.

Re: Removing stuff is never obvious yet often better

#46

Post by protocolture »

jmathai wrote: post #43

Not only is it often better but it can literally enable you to get to market an order of magnitude faster (at with higher probability of success). I'm working on a tool that makes running wire inside residential homes easier. It requires carving a channel on the back side of the baseboard. My original idea required a mechanical tool with a motor [2]. We prototyped a working version of this but always felt that the ma…

Wireshark is one thing, but considering its added to a router the collisions in language here are funny to me. Most of your customers wont care however.

Re: Removing stuff is never obvious yet often better

#47

Post by jmathai »

protocolture wrote: post #46
jmathai wrote: post #43

Not only is it often better but it can literally enable you to get to market an order of magnitude faster (at with higher probability of success). I'm working on a tool that makes running wire inside residential homes easier. It requires carving a channel on the back side of the baseboard. My original idea required a mechanical tool with a motor [2]. We prototyped a working version of this but always felt that the ma…

Wireshark is one thing, but considering its added to a router the collisions in language here are funny to me. Most of your customers wont care however.

Oh my. I never considered additional discoverability issues because of the word "router". face palm

Re: Removing stuff is never obvious yet often better

#48

Post by raylad »

I experienced something similar. We had a website with several products that seemed fairly similar, so we were concerned that people might have trouble deciding which one to get, and not buy as a result.

So we made a product advisor applet where the user would answer a few questions and it would suggest one or two products that would be best for them. Getting the applet right took a bit of work, but once it was done it worked very well.

We put it live on the site and.... conversions dropped precipitously. We A/B tested it and yep, it definitely hurt conversions. I still don't know why it hurt conversions, but it did. So we moved it from the homepage to a FAQ section of the site, and hardly anyone ever used it at all.

Re: Removing stuff is never obvious yet often better

#49

Post by cheema33 »

kmoser wrote: post #7
jclulow wrote: post #2

Perhaps removing a pricing scheme so complicated that it literally can't be modelled usefully by the customer would be even better?

The article states that the biggest factor was user misunderstanding of the options, not so much the number of different options. In other words, if they offer option A at $x and option B at 10*$x, if most users mistakenly think they need option B, the calculator is misleading. Also, I'm a big fan of "contact us for pricing." It's annoying for users who are window-shopping and want a quickie ballpark, but it helps yo…

> Also, I'm a big fan of "contact us for pricing.

I make most of the buying decisions for tech tools for my company. And it is exceptionally rare for me to ever contact somebody for pricing. I usually move on to the next vendor with transparent pricing.

You can get away with it, if you are targeting a very small market with your product and none of your competitors offer transparent pricing. My own company does not offer transparent pricing and we can get away with it for the above reasons.

Re: Removing stuff is never obvious yet often better

#50

Post by gk1 »

xiphias2 wrote: post #39

May be the problem is just having so many people (the real cost). Pinecone is just generally thought as something extremely overpriced: https://www.timescale.com/blog/pgvector-vs-pinecone/ Until they can solve the feeling (or cut down on their own overhead), I don't see that great future for the company.

There's a simpler explanation: The authors of your linked post purposefully set up Pinecone to be as expensive as possible in their test.

No pricing calculator or benchmark post (from a competitor, no less) will replace just trying the service yourself.

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