New anti-speeding system coming to Australia is dangerous • Hacker News Board

Re: New anti-speeding system coming to Australia is dangerous

#41

Post by toast0 » Wed, Aug 21, 2024, 11:09 PM UTC

switch007 wrote: post #15

People defending the system: are you presupposing it is perfect? Because let me tell you: - Start-stop when it first came out was not perfect, still isn't * - Automatic headlights were and still are pretty abysmal - Crash detection systems are horrendously bad - My car thinks it knows the speed limits of the road I'm on but it's often wrong I'd love to know what new modern cars you drive with perfect 'safety' systems…

> - Automatic headlights were and still are pretty abysmal

I've had these in three cars, they're not too bad; other than the ones without an easy way to turn them off are terrible for ferries and drive-in movies. Automatic high-beams are pretty terrible though, but IMHO, you should rarely have your high beams on if you're within 2 miles of another car.

> I still find that start-stop incredibly annoying on automatic cars

I've rented a variety of cars with different systems. Some of them are truly awful, but the ones that sense when you start to pull your foot off the brake, and have a short start time aren't awful. Probably I'm not buying anything with start-stop; my last new vehicle was half a model year before they added it, and my next new vehicle is going to be a hybrid, and I if I buy more old vehicles, they're likely to predate start-stop, probably by a significant amount.

I will also add that existing cars that report the speed limit to me are often wrong in both directions, so I wouldn't trust anything other than a very mild warning. You want to show the speed limit in black when I'm under it, and red when I'm above it (preferably by at least 3-5 mph), go for it... that sounds nice and useful. You want to beep at me once gently if I go 10 mph over and maybe once more at 15-25 over? Reasonable, I suppose; maybe even a reminder beep every 5 minutes. Anything more and your data had better be completely accurate.

Re: New anti-speeding system coming to Australia is dangerous

#42

Post by falcolas » Wed, Aug 21, 2024, 11:09 PM UTC

VeninVidiaVicii wrote: post #21

taeric wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This scenario is terribly specified. If you don't have clear time to pass a car in front of you without going an absurd amount over the posted speed limit, you almost certainly are putting yourself in danger already? I'll go further and say that people that take excess speeds in this scenario are already causing more accidents today, than a limiter would cause in the future. Edit: I should say I think it would be a b…

I wholeheartedly disagree. When you’re passing someone on a two-lane highway you should always speed way up to get the hell out of the lane of oncoming traffic.

Yes. And if you're pulled over for speeding way up, I have never heard of a traffic cop who will ticket you.

Some online study aids for passing start with "increase your speed so you may finish the pass quickly" and end with "maintain a safe passing speed until you have created sufficient distance to resume a safe cruising speed." Others recommend a full 10mph speed difference to keep the passing time short.

Re: New anti-speeding system coming to Australia is dangerous

#43

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Aug 21, 2024, 11:11 PM UTC

brnt wrote: post #38

mrkpdl wrote: post #14

I have one of the cars with this system and I believe it is dangerous, as the car is beeping for your attention, it causes regular split second distractions from your situational awareness. The main issue is that these aren’t the only beeps the car does, it has many other beeps, including one for when it notices the speed limit has changed. So you have to spend some mental power figuring out which beep you’re getting…

My car is from before this time but I've driven a few rentals with these features and it is absolutely terrible. Feels like you're driving a theme park ride, with all that flashing and beeping. What's also terrible is how they're constantly correcting the steering wheel because of invariably incorrect lane detection and one car would even happily overcorrect but then steer me right over the opposite line because it w…

You can drive without lane assist in most cases. Many models require you to explicitly turn it on each time you want to use it (like cruise control).

Re: New anti-speeding system coming to Australia is dangerous

#44

Post by kazinator » Wed, Aug 21, 2024, 11:11 PM UTC

Apreche wrote: post #9

We have many studies that show speeding is dangerous. Sounds like this system is very effective at discouraging speeding. Until I see studies showing more people are dying on road because of this system than because of speeding, sounds like it’s working as intended.

No one ever suffered ill effects from speeding. People are fine after taking a 900 km/h transcontinental flight.

It's the sudden stop that's problematic.

Drivers going 51 km/h in a 50 zone are not the cause of carnage on the roads.

Many places have ridiculously low speed limits. Drivers blow past the limits, and yet those places do not show accidents.

Perhaps what's needed is a system that intelligently detects erratic driving, from a combination of factors, like a combination of severely excessive speed, frequent lane departure, tail gating, "weaving" left and right, and such.

Re: New anti-speeding system coming to Australia is dangerous

#45

Post by falcolas » Wed, Aug 21, 2024, 11:12 PM UTC

taeric wrote: post #37

imoverclocked wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is poorly specified but also pretty common with the obvious variations. Eg: the person you are trying to pass, passive-aggressively speeds up.

If this is common where you are, you are near some pretty bad drivers? Passing on a two lane road is something that you pretty much should only do if the lead car is below the speed limit.

Half half the drivers on the road are worse than median. And road rage is a very real thing. Being passed triggers road rage like you wouldn't believe sometimes.

Yes, even when they're going under the speed limit.

Re: New anti-speeding system coming to Australia is dangerous

#46

Post by kazinator » Wed, Aug 21, 2024, 11:13 PM UTC

tazu wrote: post #12

Apreche wrote: post #9

We have many studies that show speeding is dangerous. Sounds like this system is very effective at discouraging speeding. Until I see studies showing more people are dying on road because of this system than because of speeding, sounds like it’s working as intended.

I frequently pass cars that have signs of an impaired driver. Usually the driver is texting, but the signs are usually failure to maintain lane, frequent (unnecessary) brake tapping, and sporadic acceleration. Something that impedes my ability to pass unsafe drivers is unsafe.

An unsafe driver ahead of you is safer than one behind you.

(If you're not keeping enough of a distance, then the unsafe driver is you.)

Re: New anti-speeding system coming to Australia is dangerous

#47

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Aug 21, 2024, 11:13 PM UTC

seniorsassycat wrote: post #39

I don't see anything wrong with this and hope that countries and manufacturers start to cut power or refuse to exceed limits. At the very least within cities and towns. New modes of transit have geofenced speed govenors, I don't think we should grandfather cars exceptions.

I rode in a waymo for the first time yesterday, and it was going the speed limit in downtown SF (20 MPH) while cars were speeding around us. It seems like in the future if all cars are driven by robots, traffic would go much slower, maybe to the detriment of intended capacity (the roads still felt really busy, I assume if all the cars were going 20 it would quickly jam to much less than that).

Re: New anti-speeding system coming to Australia is dangerous

#48

Post by NBJack » Wed, Aug 21, 2024, 11:14 PM UTC

mrkpdl wrote: post #14

I have one of the cars with this system and I believe it is dangerous, as the car is beeping for your attention, it causes regular split second distractions from your situational awareness. The main issue is that these aren’t the only beeps the car does, it has many other beeps, including one for when it notices the speed limit has changed. So you have to spend some mental power figuring out which beep you’re getting…

That sounds horrid.

Adding my own anecdote, I recently drove a rental Camry that had a speed limit detection system out in the middle of Alaska. It didn't do much if I went over, and I was surprised at how often it seemed to detect the right speed limit, but there were obvious errors, and no awareness of construction zones.

Makes me wonder if folks in the future will troll these systems with t-shirts and bumper stickers of 5, 10 km/h (or mph) signs. IIRC, simple flat images already confuse systems on board some Teslas.

Re: New anti-speeding system coming to Australia is dangerous

#49

Post by NBJack » Wed, Aug 21, 2024, 11:16 PM UTC

brnt wrote: post #38

mrkpdl wrote: post #14

I have one of the cars with this system and I believe it is dangerous, as the car is beeping for your attention, it causes regular split second distractions from your situational awareness. The main issue is that these aren’t the only beeps the car does, it has many other beeps, including one for when it notices the speed limit has changed. So you have to spend some mental power figuring out which beep you’re getting…

My car is from before this time but I've driven a few rentals with these features and it is absolutely terrible. Feels like you're driving a theme park ride, with all that flashing and beeping. What's also terrible is how they're constantly correcting the steering wheel because of invariably incorrect lane detection and one car would even happily overcorrect but then steer me right over the opposite line because it w…

I've had that problem, especially in construction areas temporarily routing around the painted lines. Kinda scary when you feel the wheel veer you into oncoming traffic.

Re: New anti-speeding system coming to Australia is dangerous

#50

Post by taeric » Wed, Aug 21, 2024, 11:18 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #45

taeric wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is common where you are, you are near some pretty bad drivers? Passing on a two lane road is something that you pretty much should only do if the lead car is below the speed limit.

Half half the drivers on the road are worse than median. And road rage is a very real thing. Being passed triggers road rage like you wouldn't believe sometimes. Yes, even when they're going under the speed limit.

Funny framing of it, but that isn't necessarily how the median works. Consider, what are the median number of fingers on a person's hand? How many people have less than the median number of fingers? :D

Is a fair point that it could be more common than I'd expect. I remember being a teenage driver and we were quite bad. Would love to see data on this.