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The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

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Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#41
post #5

>The owner of the panels and inverters can meanwhile establish a connection with that manufacturer using an app or website, and via the manufacturer see how their own panels are doing > It wasn’t necessary from a technical standpoint to let everything run through the manufacturer’s servers, but it was chosen to do it this way. (emphasis from article) I'm working on IoT cloud system. It was chosen to be done this way…

To be fair, I can do it only if I have time and physical access to the network. Home routers have different gateway IPs, different web interfaces, different password policies (e.g. there might be an admin password and an additional password for changing anything), etc.

It reminds me of https://xkcd.com/627/>, but when you're launching a product that isn't good enough.

It's hard enough to open up a port even with uPNP (typically disabled) and other made-for-purpose tech. Torrent clients end up trying to poke holes and such. Service discovery might work via local UDP broadcast, or it might not. LAN clients might live at 10.* or 192.* or be isolated by default. It's easier to just go onto the public internet and contact some mysterious server. Botnet by design.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#42
post #4

> It’s also possible that the manufacturer gets hacked, and subsequently sends out attacker controlled and wrong software updates to the inverters, with possibly dire consequences. > There are also people that claim that the many Chinese companies managing our power panels for us might intentionally want to harm us. Who knows. Wait, seriously? The European power system relies on Chinese companies not messing it up re…

> It’s also possible that the manufacturer gets hacked, and subsequently sends out attacker controlled and wrong software updates to the inverters, with possibly dire consequences.

Idaho National Lab is one of those places that researches this. https://inl.gov - their domains are energy (primarily nuclear and integrated) and national security ... and securing the grid is the intersection of that.

And some time back... https://www.wired.com/story/how-30-lines-of-code-blew-up-27-... ( https://web.archive.org/web/20201101002448/https://www.wired... ) . The story is from 2020. The event is from 2007.

The test footage linked in the article is on YouTube - https://youtu.be/LM8kLaJ2NDU

The wikipedia article on the test: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_Generator_Test

From the wired article the key part of how it broke:

> A protective relay attached to that generator was designed to prevent it from connecting to the rest of the power system without first syncing to that exact rhythm: 60 hertz. But Assante’s hacker in Idaho Falls had just reprogrammed that safeguard device, flipping its logic on its head.

> At 11:33 am and 23 seconds, the protective relay observed that the generator was perfectly synced. But then its corrupted brain did the opposite of what it was meant to do: It opened a circuit breaker to disconnect the machine.

> When the generator was detached from the larger circuit of Idaho National Laboratory’s electrical grid and relieved of the burden of sharing its energy with that vast system, it instantly began to accelerate, spinning faster, like a pack of horses that had been let loose from its carriage. As soon as the protective relay observed that the generator’s rotation had sped up to be fully out of sync with the rest of the grid, its maliciously flipped logic immediately reconnected it to the grid’s machinery.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#43

Eye opening for me. One of the arguments for renewable energy (besides emissions) has always been its potential for decentralizing power generation. Makes it more resilient, democratizes the means of production etc. This article shows that we inadvertently introduced new choke points. And of course the global security environment makes it more worrisome.

Solar is not the same as renewable.

Renewable and decentralized are different axes.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#44

Isn’t the right place to fix this at the junction between the plants and the grid? Regulate the grid utilities into a gateway role, and require all inverter control & telemetry traffic to pass through them. This seems likely to be more fruitful than attempting to regulate 400 Chinese panel manufacturers. What am I missing?

You're thinking about this right, just at a utility scale.

The "plants" in this context are homes and businesses. The junction points between plants and grid are the inverters sold by the panel manufacturers.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#45
post #35
post #6

I live off-grid, power and water wise, and it really irked me that the monitoring coming with my inverter is only available online. Even when there is a network available the app will not work. I fixed this by getting a raspberry pi connected and reading it from there, but if I disconnect the inverter from the internet it will create a new network so now there is always an open network in the middle of nowhere with n…

why can't people just make stuff and sell it?

In a developed country, there are lots of regulations and liabilities you are exposed to once you start selling something.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the reasoning for not allowing both control paths, via cloud but also locally? So that people who can and want to, will use the local control.

Cheapness. It would require to be at least semi secure, application on phone would need to find those devices locally and it should be synchronized with cloud anyway, synchronization is error prone and we had problems with devices sometimes responding twice or very slowly through local interface (through cloud was much faster, no idea why, not our firmware). Also not enough people requesting that feature, most don't…

Why not offer an either/or rather than both? Some people (I am one of them) actively do not want these kinds of things to be managed through the cloud servers. I don't want it to sync, I want to fully turn that off. I want to locally host, and I'm willing to take responsibility for that feature, including when it breaks. All I want is access to whatever the data reporting and control APIs are.

I get that I'm a tiny minority, and that very few customers want what I want. But A) it seems like giving me what I want should be very cheap (i.e should not entail ongoing customer support costs beyond normal, and in fact would get rid of the small cloud hosting cost) and B) I'd be willing to pay a premium to get it.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#47
post #12

The short version: most consumer and business solar panels are centrally managed by a handful of companies, mostly from countries outside of Europe. In the Netherlands alone, these solar panels generate an output equivalent to at least 25 medium sized nuclear power plants. There are almost no rules or laws in Europe governing these central administrators. . . . The same thing goes for heat pumps, home batteries, and…

The utility company fuse between the property and the 240 V distribution system should prevent overcurrent. If the frequency or phase of the inverter is wrong the inverter might die first unless the network is already down.

There isn't really any practical way to prevent overvoltage though. So a rogue controller in charge of all the solar systems in a street might be able to do quite a lot of damage to consumer devices.

A problem from the utility point of view is that they can no longer guarantee that the 240 V side of the distribution system is safe to work on just by tripping a breaker on either side of the distribution transformer. So all work on the 240 V distribution system has to be done with the assumption that the system is live.

Eventually regulations will be updated, if necessary, to deal with large numbers of solar installations on domestic buildings.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#48
That's why my system (Victron + Fronius) is offline, monitored with HA, BYD battery if there is no secret in-hw backdoor in my home server can't reach the internet as well. HA can, via wireguard, to act/monitor when I'm outside my home witch might be a serious threat but it's pretty easy to cut it off if needed.

There is a more important part, while with p.v. we still can go offline, with car's we can't. My car is connected and I can't do NOTHING to manage it, it's managed by it OEM behind me and that's a much bigger threat since single cars can paralyze the nation if properly blocked in critical points of the road network.

At a largest scale that's the reason we can't have a national smart grid but only individual smart microgrid, meaning p.v. should be used only for self-consumption NOT grid-tied like in California.

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