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What I Learned Writing an Album in Just Intonation

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Re: What I Learned Writing an Album in Just Intonation

#41

Post by klik99 »

pierrec wrote: post #3

I'd love to get some feedback on this, because I'm not sure I've hit the original goal of this article. For a long time, the topics of just intonation, harmonic lattices, and of their relationship with temperaments were difficult for me to understand, despite reading the theory on them. It's not until I applied the concepts that could say I understood them. I tried writing the "missing article" that would have given…

I think you need some info in the start of the article about why 12tet was invented, what problems it was solving and how it fails. Like - In Bachs day you'd have to retune the instrument if you changed key signatures and you could only modulate a few steps away before the ratios sounded really bad. So 12TET opens up the possibilities to modulate far away from your original and requires less retuning, at the cost of adding various amounts of dissonance to intervals. I always find it interesting that each key signature in 12TET has a unique sound (Like CMaj vs EMaj) due to inconsistent ratios in perfect fifths, etc, and that "offness" is not necessarily a bad thing. You could also mention what most people think "microtonal" is (adding extra notes in between half steps) and why just intonation is different.

IMO music is all about the balance of the harmonic/expected and dissonant/unexpected at various timescales. The experience of Just Intonation is interesting because at first it sounds wrong due to us expecting 12TET but once you recalibrate your expectations it sounds more pure and harmonic, like how choirs or string quartets slip into simpler ratios instead of sticking exactly to 12TET.

I think with some more context/succinct summary at the beginning (which is REALLY HARD to write about for a general audience) the rest of the article would be more clear for people not steeped in music theory. A way I simplify it for others is by framing it all as simple ratios vs more complicated ratios, and how harmony is a kind of alchemy in mixing those ratios together in the right amounts.

Re: What I Learned Writing an Album in Just Intonation

#42

Post by javier123454321 »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #8
pierrec wrote: post #3

I'd love to get some feedback on this, because I'm not sure I've hit the original goal of this article. For a long time, the topics of just intonation, harmonic lattices, and of their relationship with temperaments were difficult for me to understand, despite reading the theory on them. It's not until I applied the concepts that could say I understood them. I tried writing the "missing article" that would have given…

I would say that this is way too technical for me, however, I also only have the slightest hint of music theory knowledge to begin with. It seems to me like that isn't a problem though, because this is a very technical topic by nature. Unrelated to the writing, but I was kind of disappointed that when listening to the examples, I cannot for the life of me hear a difference between just intonation and equal temperamen…

I thought this video was good at explaining and showing the difference audibly https://youtu.be/zJTBT5u9AwQ?si=M3csNlck4El_eluH

Re: What I Learned Writing an Album in Just Intonation

#43

Post by naltroc »

Sharlin wrote: post #27

Should be noted that any ensemble that consists only of continuous-pitch instruments (eg. strings, trombone, human voice, fretless guitar) is free from the shackles of 12TET and its harmonies naturally tune to as close to "pure" intervals as the performers’ skills allow.

Yes, this should be noted.

Naturally JI instruments include any instrument which has a continuous frequency domain, like trombone, fretless stringed instruments, and human voice.

Instruments with keys or frets may be "bendable". However, the direction and quantity of bend varies with with each tone it is paired with, making this incredibly impractical.

Re: What I Learned Writing an Album in Just Intonation

#45

Post by naltroc »

Here are three additional references on applied Just Intonation.

The first book is abstracted away from composition and provides a more general description of tuning systems.

The next two are composition focused, explaining how tuning system is an option for musical works.

1) The book "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony" provides excellent historical context on why ET was a great solution and how we kind of got stuck with it.

While it could be read by anybody, having a bit of musical knowledge OR physics of acoustics knowledge may benefit you.

https://www.amazon.com/Equal-Temperament-Ruined-Harmony-Shou...

There are also two composers who recognize ET as a constraint (as opposed to the "the only option").

2) Harry Partch built many of his own instruments to circumvent issues from 12ET and composed music just for them. He describes his conceptualizations of JI in "Genesis Of A Music":

https://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Music-Account-Creative-Fulfil...

3) Paul Hindemtith also has some opinions on the matter, though both Partch and I disagree with his points of view. Nonetheless he has some at-the-time innovating ideas, some of which are valid and others of which may not have aged well. You can read about them in "The Craft of Musical Composition"

https://www.amazon.com/Craft-Musical-Composition-Theoretical...

Re: What I Learned Writing an Album in Just Intonation

#46

Post by colanderman »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #31

Sometimes I like writing stuff in odd scales and intonations. The "Lucy" tuning is also very pleasant [0]. I once met a producer who had guitars fretted to this tuning. It doesn't lend itself well to DAWs that have an underlying MIDI note logic. Practically it's better to work in Pd/Max with raw oscillators and arithmetic than to try shifting MIDI note values around with bend. The ZynAddSub engine (also used in Yoshi…

You can use the same construction as the Lucy scale with the periods of planets to produce true "music of the spheres"! Though the pitches tend to be clumpy, it does sound quite otherworldly.

Re: What I Learned Writing an Album in Just Intonation

#47

Post by bongodongobob »

pyinstallwoes wrote: post #39
thrtythreeforty wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interactive harmonic lattice, with the commas clickable and audible, is first rate and is the best interactive illustration of JI problems I have yet seen. It is not quite clear from the explanation, that since the "3" direction is also dividing by 2 implicitly, the note confusingly labeled "3" is really just 3/2 - the perfect fifth. Similarly, the note labeled "5" is actually what we hear as the 12TET major thir…

What are your thoughts on the fringe 432 theory, but the actual roots of it in relation to the geometric significance towards whole number ratios and then what is never discussed: the tuning associated with it?

If you're talking about using 432 Hz vs 440 Hz it's nonsense. You could pick any frequency you want. The frequency you pick to tune an A to is arbitrary.

Re: What I Learned Writing an Album in Just Intonation

#48

Post by elevation »

For practical performance of alternate intonations, you can tune a guitar so that a particular chord shape presents perfect roots and 5ths, while arranging for a single string to be a perfect third (e.g, a few cents "flat" compared to equal temperament.)

When playing this same chord shape (or an appropriate derivative) up the neck, the relative intervals is maintained for other chords, allowing perfect intonation not just of the root chord but of other chords in the key family.

For chord shapes where a flatted string cannot be used as a 2nd or 3rd, it will sound objectionably flat, but for many chord shapes it's possible to fret the flat string with additional pressure to bring it back into tolerance.

Mastering this technique makes the guitar sound much more in tune with itself which is a wonderful sensation as a player.

Re: What I Learned Writing an Album in Just Intonation

#49

Post by colanderman »

wonger_ wrote: post #7
pierrec wrote: post #3

I'd love to get some feedback on this, because I'm not sure I've hit the original goal of this article. For a long time, the topics of just intonation, harmonic lattices, and of their relationship with temperaments were difficult for me to understand, despite reading the theory on them. It's not until I applied the concepts that could say I understood them. I tried writing the "missing article" that would have given…

I am very unfamiliar with the topic. Here's my takeaways from the article: - almost all music I've heard uses 12TET - JI is microtonal / an alternative tuning to 12TET - you're the author of the lovely ambient.garden, which uses JI - the audio widgets and visualizations were very helpful - JI has perfect harmonies, and 12TET approximates those enough to still sound good - JI opens up cool chord options - but there's…

One definition of consonant intervals are those that share many overtones/partials in common [1]. This reduces the phenomenon of "beating" which is readily perceived as unpleasant dissonance. (Though small degrees of "beating" can be pleasant.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonance_and_dissonance#Acou...

Re: What I Learned Writing an Album in Just Intonation

#50

Post by black_knight »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #8
pierrec wrote: post #3

I'd love to get some feedback on this, because I'm not sure I've hit the original goal of this article. For a long time, the topics of just intonation, harmonic lattices, and of their relationship with temperaments were difficult for me to understand, despite reading the theory on them. It's not until I applied the concepts that could say I understood them. I tried writing the "missing article" that would have given…

I would say that this is way too technical for me, however, I also only have the slightest hint of music theory knowledge to begin with. It seems to me like that isn't a problem though, because this is a very technical topic by nature. Unrelated to the writing, but I was kind of disappointed that when listening to the examples, I cannot for the life of me hear a difference between just intonation and equal temperamen…

I have limited pitch perception, but I could hear the 12TET chords “beating” while the just ones fade out much more smoothly.

This beating occurs when two waves just a bit out of tune interfere, alternating between constructive and destructive interference.

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