When commenting about how this affects economic policy, immigration reform, military involvement, the causes of why we’re here, laws, title 42, migrants, justifications, and everything in between.. Remember that these are people just like you and I. They, like all humans, are seeking safety and stability for theirselves and families. The difference is that they were born, or ended up in, situations so dire they felt…
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What I Saw in the Darién Gap
41–50 of 79 posts
Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
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>>I read/hear this argument a lot in Europe to justify mass immigration I don't really see it as a justification of mass migration, but I do see it as an argument for treating migrants as human beings not cattle(or worse). There are enough politicians and people in general who think that the boats and people at the borders should be just shot at, that will stop them from coming surely /s. You see this sentiment every…
To throw more fuel to the flamewar, just look at the Israeli treatment of Gazans...
For a longer essay of the idea of "refugees welcome", from an Iranian refugee who with her parents got asylum in the US after asking many embassies: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/dina-nayeri-un...
> But what America did was a basic human obligation. It is the obligation of every person born in a safer room to open the door when someone in danger knocks. It is your duty to answer us, even if we don’t give you sugary success stories. Even if we remain a bunch of ordinary Iranians, sometimes bitter or confused. Even if the country gets overcrowded and you have to give up your luxuries, and we set up ugly little lives around the corner, marring your view. If we need a lot of help and local services, if your taxes rise and your street begins to look and feel strange and everything smells like turmeric and tamarind paste, and your favourite shop is replaced by a halal butcher, your schoolyard chatter becoming ching-chongese and phlegmy “kh”s and “gh”s, and even if, after all that, we don’t spend the rest of our days in grateful ecstasy, atoning for our need.
Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap
#43Just in time for election season, these "human interest" pieces casually begin to appear, surreptitiously stoking anti-immigrant sentiments. The Darien Gap is still "wild" because not a lot of migrants crossed it historically. Most US migrants came from Mexico. However, migration from Mexico has greatly decreased in recent decades. The net flow is around zero. [1] That's because Mexico is no longer an undeveloped cou…
What's Putin got to do with the Americans going all ballistic against Chavez back in the day? It's all on them, on the Americans, and on the Monroe doctrine.
I don't know details about Venezuela but it sounds like you would agree Obama/Biden also got nothing to do with Russians going all Holodomor against Ukrainians back in the day
Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Hi OP here - this is not an argument for or against anything. Rather just a reminder that whichever side you are on, or whatever you are advocating for, just to remember we are talking about humans. That’s the only point I was making.
I am not sure if there are any confirming studies but dehumanisation [0] seems characteristically enhanced in people whose focus is primarily on technology - on things rather than people. Moral disengagement [1] also seems to be a prevalent reaction to existential threat, which I think we all feel to some degree.
[0] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-web-violence/201...
[1] https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/3/7/14456154/deh...
Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap
#45So for a decade we got to see the impact of those sanctions and also get to look back at the aftermath. A report came out claiming that half a million children had died as a result of those sanctions. On 60 Minutes in 1996, then UN ambassador and later Secretary of State responded to this question [1]:
> “We have heard that half a million [Iraqi] children have died. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima,” asked Stahl, “And, you know, is the price worth it?”
> “I think that is a very hard choice,” Albright answered, “but the price, we think, the price is worth it.”
Did the sanctions topple the regime? No. They almost never do. Arguably they played a role in ending the apartheid regime in South Africa but other than that, economic sanctions are simply used as a tool to punish our enemies without using a single soldier.
Roughly 8 million Venezuelans have fled in the last decade as the country has descended into chaos. It's a big part of why there's been a more than tenfold increase in people crossing the Darien Gap. Also responsible is US bribing countries in Central America to deny visas to likely refugees, forcing them to make this dangerous journey.
The sanctions on Venezuela have crushed the economy [2]. They have created the very refugee crisis that is now a domestic political issue. And it's not the leaders of Venezuela who suffer. It's people like this who risk death to try and have a better life.
You might say "Maduro is a bad guy". I'll put that up agains tth elong list of "bad guys" the US is entirely happy to support and work with: Augusto Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, Ferdjinand Marcos, Pol Pot, Mohammed bin Salman, Benjamin Netanyahu.
This isn't a partisan issue either. Both politicla parties are pretty much united when it comes to US foreign policy. Sanctions on Venezuela have a history through the Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden administrations.
So if you read a story like this and have empathy for refugees fleeing chaos and violence or maybe you simply see the (completely made up) "border crisis" and don't understand what's going on, I would hope that you can see the direct connection between these migrants and the US policy that destabilized or destroyed the countries they're mostly coming from.
[1]: https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/25/lets-remember-m...
[2]: https://www.wola.org/2020/10/new-report-us-sanctions-aggrava...
Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap
#46When commenting about how this affects economic policy, immigration reform, military involvement, the causes of why we’re here, laws, title 42, migrants, justifications, and everything in between.. Remember that these are people just like you and I. They, like all humans, are seeking safety and stability for theirselves and families. The difference is that they were born, or ended up in, situations so dire they felt…
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I hope the irony is not lost on you that dehumanisation correlates very strongly with a propensity to violence.
Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think we should reconsider the "hands off" attitude that (with a few exceptions) has prevailed since the end of the Cold War. Political deference, while culturally sensitive and insisted upon by some US-weary groups, has not turned out so great. The USA has a terrible track record when in comes to direct participation in the affairs of other countries.
Name a better track record, tovarich. Besides, the participation is in the context of that of other countries, especially Russia. It's one thing to argue that we shouldn't pull bathers out of the lake. It's another to argue that we shouldn't pull drowners out of the rapids.
Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Name a better track record, tovarich. Besides, the participation is in the context of that of other countries, especially Russia. It's one thing to argue that we shouldn't pull bathers out of the lake. It's another to argue that we shouldn't pull drowners out of the rapids.
China? That seems to concentrate on building infrastructure in countries rather than toppling their governments...
Either way, more "infrastructure diplomacy" is not far from what I'm advocating for. A nudge here, a free trade agreement there, and all of Central America could look like Mexico within a decade.
Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's Putin got to do with the Americans going all ballistic against Chavez back in the day? It's all on them, on the Americans, and on the Monroe doctrine.
> What's Putin got to do with the Americans going all ballistic against Chavez back in the day? It's all on them, on the Americans, and on the Monroe doctrine. I don't know details about Venezuela but it sounds like you would agree Obama/Biden also got nothing to do with Russians going all Holodomor against Ukrainians back in the day
Re: What I Saw in the Darién Gap
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
>>I read/hear this argument a lot in Europe to justify mass immigration I don't really see it as a justification of mass migration, but I do see it as an argument for treating migrants as human beings not cattle(or worse). There are enough politicians and people in general who think that the boats and people at the borders should be just shot at, that will stop them from coming surely /s. You see this sentiment every…
Yeah, the whole "they're 'savages'" argument feels like a justification of why "we" (westerners living in relative luxury) are allowed to deny them the basic neccessities for life (food, housing, freedom from falling bombs). To throw more fuel to the flamewar, just look at the Israeli treatment of Gazans... For a longer essay of the idea of "refugees welcome", from an Iranian refugee who with her parents got asylum i…