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UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

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Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#41

Post by blfr »

bheadmaster wrote: post #36
blfr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We want to guarantee for every human on the planet the right to food, water, shelter, health care, and education. ... What matters is that we agree on that goal and find some way to achieve it. Honestly, I don't. First, perhaps it's small minded but I don't really feel responsible for every human on the planet, or even a significant percentage. Second, the value, even to the end recipient, of vast majority of educati…

> Honestly, I don't. First, perhaps it's small minded but I don't really feel responsible for every human on the planet, or even a significant percentage. A government that governs a nation is arguably responsible for every human in it.

Not even remotely so in practice. Adults are largely responsible for themselves and their kids/elders. Sure, with some government assistance but true state wards are fairly rare and the system would have no chance of working if they weren't.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#42

Post by _heimdall »

Apreche wrote: post #14
seydor wrote: post #5

Doesn't UBI equate to lowering the prices for everything? Isn't it more feasible to pursue the latter?

We want to guarantee for every human on the planet the right to food, water, shelter, health care, and education. Giving everyone enough money to buy all those things themselves is one way to do it. Raising funds (taxes) and then providing those services for free is another way. It doesn’t really matter which way. What matters is that we agree on that goal and find some way to achieve it. Right now we have a system w…

Handing out money will never make resources appear where they don't exist though. And if we want to say everyone should have access to certain resources, having money as an intermediary actually does us a diservice.

If everyone should have access to water, federalize water utilities and don't charge anyone. You will them have to deal with access rights though. How much water is enough for everyone to have access to? How do we avoid water rights issues even worse than what California has?

Defining certain resources as a fundamental right while still forcing them to operate as a free market is a risky game of chicken. If prices are still able to fluctuate in response to market supply & demand then we really aren't saying we truly believe everyone should have water, shelter, etc. A UBI is only an agreement that some amount of money is a fundamental right, nothing more.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#43

Post by hypercube33 »

harryf wrote: post #28

From the post... > the key insight that the Noah Smiths of the world seem to be missing is that, in today’s world, we artificially elevate labor demand to keep people employed. To me one learning of COVID and lockdowns is that we're fully capable of meeting all our basic needs with less than 20% of the workforce (which sadly tends also tends to be the lowest paid). In short we don't need everyone to be working for fo…

Sure maybe 20% can run the basics but what about building or growing society?

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#44

Post by Jedd »

blfr wrote: post #7

The world is increasingly complex making it seem to many people that their work is unproductive (bullshit/make-work jobs). This and lack of agency in many jobs is what leads to massive frustration with work* but it's not actually an incisive observation about the economy as a whole. it’s not possible to pilot a UBI. Giving cash to a small subset of the population is not UBI. UBI goes to everyone. It changes the econo…

> I am in particular very skeptical of anything that cannot be piloted or otherwise effectively tested on a smaller scale.

In turn, I'm sceptical of people who say we can't entertain any non-trivial, non-cautionary, non-evolutionary changes to the status quo ... while downplaying the fact that the situation we're in now - 9-5, mon-fri, 20-65yo - was not piloted or effectively tested on a smaller scale before all of us inherited it.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#45

Post by _heimdall »

bheadmaster wrote: post #36
blfr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We want to guarantee for every human on the planet the right to food, water, shelter, health care, and education. ... What matters is that we agree on that goal and find some way to achieve it. Honestly, I don't. First, perhaps it's small minded but I don't really feel responsible for every human on the planet, or even a significant percentage. Second, the value, even to the end recipient, of vast majority of educati…

> Honestly, I don't. First, perhaps it's small minded but I don't really feel responsible for every human on the planet, or even a significant percentage. A government that governs a nation is arguably responsible for every human in it.

This is the core of so many problems in western governments today. Governments should be there to coordinate complex problems that society doesn't have a better way to handle. Governments should not be there to be a responsible parent to everyone, whether they want it or not.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#46

Post by Retric »

_heimdall wrote: post #40
Retric wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subsidizing the economy is a meaningless idea, it reallocates resources. As to being impossible to model, there’s a great number of countries in the world eventually one will likely try the experiment on its entire economy without impacting 99.9% of the global population. That said, you can turn individual safety nets into UBI lockstep with changing the tax code and see what happens. The fear is people would spend ‘f…

Literally any economic decision is reallocated resources, that term is much too broad to be meaningful. Are you arguing that a UBI is wealth redistribution specifically? Someone will try it, totally agree there. I don't see any problem with that either, countries should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. I wouldn't tell France they shouldn't try it, but I am absolutely saying I don't…

> Are you arguing that a UBI is wealth redistribution specifically?

I’m saying social safety nets are already wealth redistribution. Changing the form of that safety net to UBI is an allocation of resources based on individual decisions and thus free markets where Food Stamps/Housing Subsidies/etc is allocating money based on bureaucratic decisions.

Basically nothing says UBI needs to cost more than existing social safety nets.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#47

Post by bamboozled »

harryf wrote: post #28

From the post... > the key insight that the Noah Smiths of the world seem to be missing is that, in today’s world, we artificially elevate labor demand to keep people employed. To me one learning of COVID and lockdowns is that we're fully capable of meeting all our basic needs with less than 20% of the workforce (which sadly tends also tends to be the lowest paid). In short we don't need everyone to be working for fo…

Unless you can provide some hard figures, that number is probably not really accurate.

I'd say an insane amount of effort would go into all the things around growing food.

I've grown food and built houses and I can tell you, both things required a LOT of work, and if you want to do it efficiently, you need a LOT of good material and tech. None of that stuff falls out of trees. Ask Russians who are now under sanctions.

We now also have climate change, droughts floods and more thrown into that food growing complexity mix. One major famine could wipe out millions.

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#48

Post by blfr »

Jedd wrote: post #44
blfr wrote: post #7

The world is increasingly complex making it seem to many people that their work is unproductive (bullshit/make-work jobs). This and lack of agency in many jobs is what leads to massive frustration with work* but it's not actually an incisive observation about the economy as a whole. it’s not possible to pilot a UBI. Giving cash to a small subset of the population is not UBI. UBI goes to everyone. It changes the econo…

> I am in particular very skeptical of anything that cannot be piloted or otherwise effectively tested on a smaller scale. In turn, I'm sceptical of people who say we can't entertain any non-trivial, non-cautionary, non-evolutionary changes to the status quo ... while downplaying the fact that the situation we're in now - 9-5, mon-fri, 20-65yo - was not piloted or effectively tested on a smaller scale before all of u…

Shift work with fixed time frames was absolutely piloted on tiny scales way back during industrial revolution and evolved from there.

We supposedly even had podcasts to make menial work bearable back in... 1865: https://mashable.com/feature/cigar-factory-lectors

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#49

Post by Jedd »

seydor wrote: post #5

Doesn't UBI equate to lowering the prices for everything? Isn't it more feasible to pursue the latter?

I don't think you can usefully equate 'UBI' to a single outcome of UBI.

One of the goals of UBI, as I interpret it, is to reduce the cost of living closer to zero.

And that's the literal cost of living - not the macroeconomist's use of the term. That phrase, once you contemplate it, is a ludicrous reflection of how our society has gone wrong.

Why should it cost to live?

(You can consider the answer in terms of > 11kya anthropology, or in terms of our current, advanced food production capabilities + other technologies - take your pick.)

Re: UBI and the Anti-Work Vibe Shift

#50

Post by _heimdall »

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #39
blfr wrote: post #7

The world is increasingly complex making it seem to many people that their work is unproductive (bullshit/make-work jobs). This and lack of agency in many jobs is what leads to massive frustration with work* but it's not actually an incisive observation about the economy as a whole. it’s not possible to pilot a UBI. Giving cash to a small subset of the population is not UBI. UBI goes to everyone. It changes the econo…

https://www.firstpost.com/india/karnataka-congress-governmen... heh. go away and take your UBI and 38 hour work week. they are implementing a law to enforce this. so you will work for twice a 38 hour work week and still be paid less because why not.

Oh don't be cynical, free money won't come with strings attached.
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