Live data from Hacker News

In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

web.stanford.edu

41–50 of 271 posts

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#41
post #13

The command line is still king. Whenever I see new coders struggle, it usually is because they: - Don't know the context of what they are executing - Don't know about the concept of input and output On the command line, the context is obvious. You are in the context. The working dir, the environment, everything is the same for you as it is for the thing you execute via ./mything.py. Input and output are also obvious.…

"Don't know about the concept of input and output"

Wow, that seems quite fundamental. Computing 101.

I'm not a "coder" and I spend "99%" of time on the command line. Because I prefer it. Ever since the 80s when I first used a VAX.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#43
post #40

The CLI has a massive blind spot in today’s operating systems: it knows nothing useful about events. Yet events are the primary way anything happens on a computer, whether it’s a user system or a server.

huh? DBUS is very much a thing and has CLI-tooling?

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#44
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ran it through an LLM and asked it to summarize and answer questions about it. Worked great to get the gist.

I am curious, why is this comment being down-voted? I mean, I would like to hear an opinion against it (not that I care about the points).

> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#45
post #40

The CLI has a massive blind spot in today’s operating systems: it knows nothing useful about events. Yet events are the primary way anything happens on a computer, whether it’s a user system or a server.

Annoying though it may be, you can run a program in the background that can write to your open terminal.

Just in userspace you have;

   dmesg -w

   tail -f /var/log/messages
There's also dbus to monitor on Linux systems and a lot of kernel hook tricks you can use to get a message pop up if an event happens.

Because it gets annoying to have a process splurge notification stuff to a term you are working in, that's why you have info-bars which many terminal emulators support.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#46
post #29
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the command line, the context is obvious. You are in the context While I share the opinion that the command line is _the one true way_ of computing, I don't think this is really all that true. Computers are alien. GUIs are alien. CLIs are alien. Everything is learned. Everything is experience. Everything is culture. Learning, experience, and culture blind us from the experience of the novice. This is "expert bli…

More succinctly, "the only intuitive interface is the nipple."

Some babies actually do not have that intuition and rather bite and need time to learn.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#47
post #13

The command line is still king. Whenever I see new coders struggle, it usually is because they: - Don't know the context of what they are executing - Don't know about the concept of input and output On the command line, the context is obvious. You are in the context. The working dir, the environment, everything is the same for you as it is for the thing you execute via ./mything.py. Input and output are also obvious.…

The command line is king, but sometimes the king is mad. Which is to say, it can be difficult to work with the monarchy when the syntax is shit. And there's a lot of bad syntax out there: overly cute, so terse as to be cryptographic, the straight-up baffling ...

Outside of the syntax (which seems to live forever), you have things like non-sane defaults, obscurantist man pages ... the list goes on.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#48
post #29
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the command line, the context is obvious. You are in the context While I share the opinion that the command line is _the one true way_ of computing, I don't think this is really all that true. Computers are alien. GUIs are alien. CLIs are alien. Everything is learned. Everything is experience. Everything is culture. Learning, experience, and culture blind us from the experience of the novice. This is "expert bli…

More succinctly, "the only intuitive interface is the nipple."

Not even that. Newborns have to learn how to suckle, and their mother has to learn how to hold everything in the right positions so it can work. It’s a tricky skill and many aren’t successful even if they want to breastfeed.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#49
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more experience I accumulate, the more I rely on GUIs. Explanation: when I was younger I used exclusively the CLI and underestimated GUIs. Now I tend to appreciate GUIs and use them more.

If you're experienced with the command line, it's easy to use GUIs and get good results. If one starts with GUIs and doesn't really understand what is behind, then all kinds of trouble happen. So I guess, as with any tool, understanding is key.

Not all GUIs are just a graphical wrapper for a CLI. But in general sure, understanding the tech behind helps.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#50
The section on "THE INTERFACE CULTURE" is critical to understand in today's digital media landscape. Disney's Animal Kingdom is to the written works of Lewis Carroll and J.M. Barrie as the GUI is to the command-line interface. The message of one medium is audiovisual spectacle and immersive experience; the other, cold intellectualism demanding participation from the reader to paint a picture in his mind's eye through the interpretation of raw text, words on a screen, or a piece of paper.

    But this is precisely the same as what is lost in the transition from the
    command-line interface to the GUI.

    Why are we rejecting explicit word-based interfaces, and embracing
    graphical or sensorial ones--a trend that accounts for the success of both
    Microsoft and Disney?

    But we have lost touch with those intellectuals, and with anything like
    intellectualism, even to the point of not reading books any more, though we
    are literate.
Elsewhere [0] I have called this concept "post-literacy," and this theme pervades much of Stephenson's work - highly technologically advanced societies outfitted with molecular assemblers and metaverses, populated by illiterate masses who mostly get by through the use of pictographs and hieroglyphic languages (emoji, anyone?). Literacy is for the monks who, cloistered away in their monasteries, still scribble ink scratchings on dead trees and ponder "useless" philosophical quandaries.

The structure of modern audiovisual media lends itself to the immediate application of implicit bias. On IRC, in the days of 56k before bandwidth and computer networks had developed to the point of being able to deliver low-latency, high definition audio and video, perhaps even for "real-time" videoconferencing, most of your interactions with others online was mediated through the written word. Nowhere here, unless some party chooses to disclose it, do race, gender, accent, physical appearance, or otherwise, enter into the picture and possibly cloud your judgment of who a person is - or, more importantly, the weight of their words, and whether or not they are correct, or at least insightful; consider Turing's "Computing Machinery and Intelligence" paper which first introduced what is now called the "Turing test," and how it was designed to be conducted purely over textual media as a written conversation, so as to avoid influencing through other channels the interrogator's judgment of who is the man, and who is the machine.

    The only real problem is that anyone who has no culture, other than this
    global monoculture, is completely screwed. Anyone who grows up watching TV,
    never sees any religion or philosophy, is raised in an atmosphere of moral
    relativism, learns about civics from watching bimbo eruptions on network TV
    news, and attends a university where postmodernists vie to outdo each other
    in demolishing traditional notions of truth and quality, is going to come
    out into the world as one pretty feckless human being.
Moreover, the confusion of symbols for reality, the precession of digitized, audiovisual content from a mere representation to more-than-real, digital hyperreality (since truth and God are all dead and everything is merely a consensual societal hallucination), leads people to mistake pixels on a screen for actual objects; narrative and spin for truth; influencers, videos, and YouTube personalities for actual people; or words from ChatGPT as real wisdom and insight - much in the same way that Searle's so-called "Chinese room" masquerades as an actual native speaker of Mandarin or Cantonese: "What we're really buying is a system of metaphors. And--much more important--what we're buying into is the underlying assumption that metaphors are a good way to deal with the world."

    So many ignorant people could be dangerous if they got pointed in the wrong
    direction, and so we've evolved a popular culture that is (a) almost
    unbelievably infectious and (b) neuters every person who gets infected by
    it, by rendering them unwilling to make judgments and incapable of taking
    stands.

    It simply is the case that we are way too busy, nowadays, to comprehend
    everything in detail.
The structure of modern short-form, upvote-driven media, lends itself to the production of short-form messages and takes with laughably small upper bounds on the amount of information they can contain. In a manner reminiscent of "you are what you eat," you think similarly to the forms of media you consume - and one who consumes primarily short-form media will produce short-form thoughts bereft of nuance and critical thinking, and additionally suffer from all the deficits in attention span we have heard of as the next braindead 10-second short or reel robs you of your concentration, and the next, and the next...

Beyond the infectious slot machine-like dopamine gratification of the pull-to-refresh and the infinite doomscroll, the downvote has become a frighteningly effective means of squashing heterodoxy and dissent; it is only those messages that are approved of and given assent to by the masses that become visible on the medium. Those who take a principled stand are immediately squashed down by the downvote mob, or worse, suffer from severe censure and invective at the hands of those zealous enforcers of orthodoxy. The downvote mechanism is reminiscent of the three "filters" Chomsky wrote of when he was discussing the mass media in "Manufacturing Consent," and the way advertisers, government, and capital all control and filter what content is disseminated to media consumers.

The message of modern, audiovisual, short-form, upvote-driven social media is bias and group compliance bereft of nuance. If you want to produce and consume novel ideas you are better served by media based on the written word.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39990133

Post reply on HN