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Dual action antibiotic could make bacterial resistance nearly impossible

phys.org

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Re: Dual action antibiotic could make bacterial resistance nearly impossible

#41

Post by etiam »

wkrsz wrote: post #4
didgeoridoo wrote: post #3

It’s unclear why the same benefit couldn’t be achieved by mixing two traditional antibiotics with different mechanisms of action. Maybe the combined dosage would stress the liver too much?

Bacteria can develop resistance to individual antibiotic mechanism. Then two strains can swap resistance genes to produce a super-bug: https://asm.org/articles/2023/january/plasmids-and-the-sprea... My understanding is that in this case bacteria would have to develop resistance to two mechanisms at the same time, which is much more difficult. Mandatory quote: "Life, uh, finds a way"

The reason two is harder is a bit subtle.

Hitting the population with multiple mechanisms simultaneously masks the selective advantage of slightly better phenotypes against the individual attacks.

There's a spread in individual characteristics, and if the attacks are applied independently, the more vulnerable individuals perish more readily and the genetic distribution goes on to trying states mainly near the more resilient ones against that attack. But faring a bit better against Attack-1 is practically no better than not, if Attack-2 is always going to wipe out all Attack-1-resistance phenotypes about equally anyway.

Executed just right it attacks the conditions for gradual evolution by breaking most of the corrective signal.

Re: Dual action antibiotic could make bacterial resistance nearly impossible

#42

Post by etiam »

jncfhnb wrote: post #35

I’ve heard for years that antibiotic resistant bacteria don’t really seem to be a threat because they tend not be very successful in the wild. Like it’s going to be, at best, a very localized outbreak because competitive pressures don’t reward the trade offs. That’s still true?

Making extra genetic material and their resistance products can be a liability if they're useless (and so would slowly be lost), but there's all sorts of chemical combat between microbes in lots of environments and you can't be sure the resistance adaptations aren't good for other things too, potentially something different.

Re: Dual action antibiotic could make bacterial resistance nearly impossible

#43

Post by bluGill »

jncfhnb wrote: post #35

I’ve heard for years that antibiotic resistant bacteria don’t really seem to be a threat because they tend not be very successful in the wild. Like it’s going to be, at best, a very localized outbreak because competitive pressures don’t reward the trade offs. That’s still true?

Hospitals are an environment where they have the advantage and where humans who are most vulnerable are. Outside of a hospital they don't do as well, but the local environments they do well in are still important even if they are a minority.

Also, if the bacteria targets humans or things humans treat (cats...) anything not resistant will not survive as well because when we detect sickness we treat it and select for anything resistant.

Re: Dual action antibiotic could make bacterial resistance nearly impossible

#45

Post by bluGill »

rscho wrote: post #32
amelius wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the best way to allow the liver to recover after such heavy medication?

Don't drink alcohol. Drink water. Eat healthy, not too much, mostly plants.

> mostly plants.

This is in general good advice, but in the context of healing the liver plants are generally the type of poison your liver exists to filter in the first place, so a meat heavy diet is likely better. Of course you are trading longer term cardiovascular health for short term liver healing so don't do this for long, but if your liver is very damaged avoid plants as well for a short term.

Re: Dual action antibiotic could make bacterial resistance nearly impossible

#46

Post by scotty79 »

bluGill wrote: post #43
jncfhnb wrote: post #35

I’ve heard for years that antibiotic resistant bacteria don’t really seem to be a threat because they tend not be very successful in the wild. Like it’s going to be, at best, a very localized outbreak because competitive pressures don’t reward the trade offs. That’s still true?

Hospitals are an environment where they have the advantage and where humans who are most vulnerable are. Outside of a hospital they don't do as well, but the local environments they do well in are still important even if they are a minority. Also, if the bacteria targets humans or things humans treat (cats...) anything not resistant will not survive as well because when we detect sickness we treat it and select for a…

Maybe hospitals is a bad idea then and healthcare should be more distributed, given sufficient resources. Auto doc in every crew quarters.

Re: Dual action antibiotic could make bacterial resistance nearly impossible

#47

Post by Retric »

bluGill wrote: post #45
rscho wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't drink alcohol. Drink water. Eat healthy, not too much, mostly plants.

> mostly plants. This is in general good advice, but in the context of healing the liver plants are generally the type of poison your liver exists to filter in the first place, so a meat heavy diet is likely better. Of course you are trading longer term cardiovascular health for short term liver healing so don't do this for long, but if your liver is very damaged avoid plants as well for a short term.

That may seem logical, but actual testing shows a largely plant based diet is actually better for the liver.

Enterohepatic Recirculation is heavily influenced by diet which is why fiber and specifically leafy greens seem to be helpful for liver heath. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterohepatic_circulation

This is also one of the reasons activated charcoal is useful after ingesting a wide range of harmful substances.

Re: Dual action antibiotic could make bacterial resistance nearly impossible

#50

Post by bluGill »

scotty79 wrote: post #46
bluGill wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hospitals are an environment where they have the advantage and where humans who are most vulnerable are. Outside of a hospital they don't do as well, but the local environments they do well in are still important even if they are a minority. Also, if the bacteria targets humans or things humans treat (cats...) anything not resistant will not survive as well because when we detect sickness we treat it and select for a…

Maybe hospitals is a bad idea then and healthcare should be more distributed, given sufficient resources. Auto doc in every crew quarters.

Unfortunately that doesn't work either as a large concentration of experts in one place is a useful feature of large hospitals. If something goes wrong you want the right expert available to help. An expert who is currently doing surgery on someone else isn't available to jump in on your problem. When things go per routine you only need the small team, but having a larger team for if things go wrong is helpful.

At least today robots are not ready for general hospital needs. time will tell if the future works out.

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