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I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

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Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#41

Post by MrJohz »

whartung wrote: post #25

Every time I take a stab at a web gui app, I’m daunted. The toolkits, the apparently billions of dependencies, the vastly complicated build processes. I tried again recently. HTML file and a separate JS file. Some SVG elements with a click handler. I had mouse in and mouse out logic, and that worked great. But for some reason the click handler did not. I tried it in Safari, Chrome, and Firefox. It worked in Firefox.…

I think I feel a bit like your friend: web development is not supposed to hurt that much, and it usually only happens if you start doing things in obscure ways, or unusual environments, or whatever else. Unfortunately, when you're just starting out, or trying something as a hobby, it's difficult to tell what the "correct" way of doing things is, so beginners often fall into these sorts of traps.

I don't think this is any different with web development, GUI programming, machine learning, embedded, or anything else. I did a bit of work with Pandas recently and spent the whole time going "but this is so dumb - why would it work like this?" In reality, it was not dumb, I was just inexperienced with the task and tools I was working with, and was running into problems because of that inexperience.

There are some ways to mitigate this, and good learning resources that show you how to get onto the happy path (without bombarding you with too many best practices up front) are worth their weight in gold. But I think it's very easy to forget what it feels like to learn something new, so often when we approach a new area of programming, we notice how difficult it is to learn, and that feels surprising to us - even though it surely took us a long time to get comfortable with the stuff we already know.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#42

Post by Dalewyn »

Twisell wrote: post #35

Would be interesting though to repeat this analysis today because the rise of AppStores considerably simplified the shareware model for those who use them (while they have huge drawbacks too). 1. Land on the site by searching 2. Click on the preferred/compatible AppStore link 3. Optional step for tech savy users : Read commitments and review to check if something is dubious 4. Use the app for X weeks of trying period…

I actually find myself actively avoiding getting anything from application stores without prior outside knowledge.

Why? Because given no other context I cannot tell apart the decent from the bullshit, let alone the good. There are no differentiators because the storefront obviously accepts everything including the bull-est of shits, being paid-for or free-beer is hardly a useful measure these days (and $5 is nothing), and basically everything outside of a very small handful comes from no-name developers and publishers (bonus points if Suspicious Chinese(tm) names).

Back in ye olde days: I could count on stores since if they put something on their shelves they clearly sold enough volume. I could/can count on word-of-mouth websites with EXE and ZIP downloads. I could/can count on digital storefronts because their userbase could be trusted (eg: Steam, GOG).

Application stores? It's all just 300% noise.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#43

Post by eXpl0it3r »

It's a bit of a one sided view. For someone trying to commercialize their simplistic application, it seems to make perfectly sense.

The article is missing the down-sides/limitations of web apps though, especially from a user perspective. Bingo Card users are in luck that the author has kept maintaining the site for 15years, but I'd say 9/10 "web apps" would not last 5 years, where a desktop application, I could at least continuing using, assuming the activation doesn't require external checks.

And then in this day and age, you never know when the enshitification of applications sets in. Yes, this can happen to desktop applications as well, but as the author points out, it's much faster to release something "new" on the web. You can A/B test the web app to max profitability, regardless of user experience or user needs.

Finally, for more complex applications, the latency on desktop applications has been severely underplayed. With web apps and web apps as desktop apps, people have been pushed into a new expectation of how fast computers can be.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#44

Post by hgyjnbdet »

whartung wrote: post #25

Every time I take a stab at a web gui app, I’m daunted. The toolkits, the apparently billions of dependencies, the vastly complicated build processes. I tried again recently. HTML file and a separate JS file. Some SVG elements with a click handler. I had mouse in and mouse out logic, and that worked great. But for some reason the click handler did not. I tried it in Safari, Chrome, and Firefox. It worked in Firefox.…

Not popular on HN, but you should look into Dart/Flutter, especially if it's for a hobby.

I too was daunted like you and that's why I chose Dart/Flutter. Though if you're wanting web technologies I'd consider looking into: https://leanwebclub.com/

Nothing to do with them but they're all about franework-less web technologies.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#45

Post by coldtea »

ffsm8 wrote: post #32
adastra22 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers like you and I are a dying breed. We remember writing applications for operating systems that had straightforward APIs, and OS developers that worked hard to ensure any app which used those APIs would not break. Most "full-stack" developers I know that write web apps have literally never written a line of C++ in their life, let alone written a rich text editor using an object oriented desktop GUI API. They…

I wish they were a dying breed, but no, you're not. You're just looking at the past with extremely rose tinted glasses. It's way,way easier to implement a UI like in the 90s with hmtl5. You're just trying to make a modern UI with all it's bells in whistles and now complain how complicated it is. The tech ain't any more complicated. The software you're imagining has a waaaay more complicated UI then what you did in th…

>You're just looking at the past with extremely rose tinted glasses

Dude, some of us still write 90s style code, even Delphi style stuff (FreePascal and Lazarus), and can still compare it everyday to modern web dev.

It was better without any "rose tinted glasses" needed.

Same for 00s C#/.NET or even "classic" Visual Basic - dead easy to make even an elaborate UI going.

>It's way,way easier to implement a UI like in the 90s with hmtl5.

No, it really is not. What you're describing is some simple form, as if 90s UIs were constrained to that.

>The tech ain't any more complicated. The software you're imagining has a waaaay more complicated UI then what you did in the 90s

Not even close to being right. Most web apps including Electron apps are dead simple and primitive functionality wise compared to the 90s (including not having all the functionality one got for free via integration with the OS), but their codebases and dev platforms are still over-engineered and haphazardly-engineered monstrocities. And then there's the resource consumption.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#46

Post by tarsinge »

swiftcoder wrote: post #36
BuildTheWorld wrote: post #9

Now that websites can use the File System Access API to load and save files, the Desktop is "solved" for me. Everybody can use my software simply by opening the url in their browser. The new challenge is phones. Mobile browsers do not support the File System Access API. What is a solution to this? Is there a reputable service that converts a web page into an Android/iOS app so that it can load and save files?

> Mobile browsers do not support the File System Access API Unfortunately Safari on Desktop also doesn't support the File System Access API. Ditto for WebUSB, WebBluetooth, WebMIDI, etc. Whole classes of "desktop-lite" web apps that can only be shipped on Chrome. It's kind of a hard sell to ship a web app that just doesn't work for normal users who bought a MacBook.

For me it makes sense when you start to see Chrome as an OS. Developers use Chrome specific API, which means the apps are not web apps, but Chrome apps (and the developers Chrome developers). Sure the Chrome (OS) is cross platform so it’s a great platform to develop your app. But it’s a little bit unfair (unless you consider that Google = the Web, which may be the reality I refuse to see).

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#47

Post by blitzar »

Dalewyn wrote: post #42
Twisell wrote: post #35

Would be interesting though to repeat this analysis today because the rise of AppStores considerably simplified the shareware model for those who use them (while they have huge drawbacks too). 1. Land on the site by searching 2. Click on the preferred/compatible AppStore link 3. Optional step for tech savy users : Read commitments and review to check if something is dubious 4. Use the app for X weeks of trying period…

I actually find myself actively avoiding getting anything from application stores without prior outside knowledge. Why? Because given no other context I cannot tell apart the decent from the bullshit, let alone the good. There are no differentiators because the storefront obviously accepts everything including the bull-est of shits, being paid-for or free-beer is hardly a useful measure these days (and $5 is nothing)…

> I could/can count on word-of-mouth websites with EXE and ZIP downloads

If you did this - your computer was 100% compromised.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#48

Post by adastra22 »

ffsm8 wrote: post #32
adastra22 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers like you and I are a dying breed. We remember writing applications for operating systems that had straightforward APIs, and OS developers that worked hard to ensure any app which used those APIs would not break. Most "full-stack" developers I know that write web apps have literally never written a line of C++ in their life, let alone written a rich text editor using an object oriented desktop GUI API. They…

I wish they were a dying breed, but no, you're not. You're just looking at the past with extremely rose tinted glasses. It's way,way easier to implement a UI like in the 90s with hmtl5. You're just trying to make a modern UI with all it's bells in whistles and now complain how complicated it is. The tech ain't any more complicated. The software you're imagining has a waaaay more complicated UI then what you did in th…

I right rich/native applications right now, using OS-provided APIs. It's a little bit of a pain point because I've chosen to transition to writing in Rust, and the Rust interfaces always have some friction. But the native APIs themselves? Smooth as butter and a joy to work with. It ain't complicated at all.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#49

Post by creesch »

kylebenzle wrote: post #26
creesch wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are missing a step in your conclusion there. The reason users aren't as robust in organizing where their files come is because file browsing on phones isn't as robust. On the android side the file browser that comes with the phone (if any) is bare bones. This combined with various sandboxing can make it pretty annoying to know exactly where your files end up. Then there is the fact that the small UI on ph…

Total Commander is great but there are tons of real file explorers for any user "robust" enough. I think what user above is pointing out what we have all noticed, people browsing the web from a phone are usually younger, less intelligent and unrefined enough to be better off not given access to the file system . 1. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ghisler.an...

You are only further affirming the point I am making. You need a third party app in order to be able to browse files well enough on Android devices. And even then you do not get the same experience as you would get on a desktop OS. Simply because the same amount of information (file name, icons, creation date, change date, file size) which does fit fine on desktop does not fit as well on a phone screen without creating huge clutter.

Of course, younger users never really having used a file system doesn't work either. But certainly calling them "less intelligent and unrefined" is a ridiculous hot take if I ever saw one.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#50

Post by dep_b »

The true death of desktop applications were system administrators and their draconian app policies.

What do you want to do? Ask the eternally overworked BOFH of duty to go through the month-long approval process of deploying a superior desktop app to the org, or just pay the monthly fees of a SaaS (conveniently below the approval required threshold) and have a mediocre solution right now?

The AppStore’s ease and security is what saved native apps on mobile.

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