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The Right Kind of Stubborn

paulgraham.com

41–50 of 249 posts

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#41

I often wonder into which of these two categories I fall with my epaper calendars. On the one hand, I’ve been working on this product for four years, put every free minute into it, and it still doesn’t make enough money for me to quit my job. On the other hand, the product keeps getting better as I work on it, and I have now sold 500 of them. But sometimes I feel like I can’t keep going like this. Two jobs and a fami…

That's cool. The news front-page screenshot & calendar use-cases appeal to me. (Although, it seems like I could just do the news FP thing myself, with "Any image URL", rather than your $3/mo service.)

Is it touch interactive? Like, can I tap on a cell in the calendar to see "... and 2 more" details?

Can I easily create my own replacement frame?

Can I hang it on the wall in a manner where I can rotate between portrait & landscape orientations, and have it react in an appropriate way for the running app?

Is there an SDK for app development?

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#42

I often wonder into which of these two categories I fall with my epaper calendars. On the one hand, I’ve been working on this product for four years, put every free minute into it, and it still doesn’t make enough money for me to quit my job. On the other hand, the product keeps getting better as I work on it, and I have now sold 500 of them. But sometimes I feel like I can’t keep going like this. Two jobs and a fami…

1.) I don't like your name. Your computers are not invisible. They are definitely visible. If you were making an Alexa/Siri smart speaker computer that you hid in the walls, that would make sense to call it Invisible Computers.

But your computer is a screen. The definition of a screen is something you look at.

2.) Simplify your workflows: combine with your github profile. This is clearly your passion. Own it. Move all the invisible computer repos to your own GitHub repo.

3) Tell us _why_ this product keeps you going. What do you hate about tech that keeps you working on this for four years?

I love eInk. Have been following it since I read about eInk in Hiawatha Bray's Boston Globe column when I was a kid. I think I may have been one of the very first (if not the first) to buy the new Daylight computer (though I completely forgot about it until they emailed me recently). I had a couple of Remarkable 2s. I think there's many great things there, and your bet is directionally correct, just need to pivot a few things slightly.

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#43
post #30

I often wonder into which of these two categories I fall with my epaper calendars. On the one hand, I’ve been working on this product for four years, put every free minute into it, and it still doesn’t make enough money for me to quit my job. On the other hand, the product keeps getting better as I work on it, and I have now sold 500 of them. But sometimes I feel like I can’t keep going like this. Two jobs and a fami…

Sounds like a marketing problem. It wouldn't be weird at all to see that at every bookstore in the country. So why isn't it there? Are you focusing on making the product better forever, instead of getting it in front of people, or tuning it to what they are most eager to pay for, or tuning the website to get more sales? What beliefs are causing you to make that mistake? Are you scared of those parts, and therefore av…

Two things:

I am not sure if marketing is the bottleneck or the product itself - I have been getting inconsistent feedback on that.

On the marketing side, I’ve been trying to make the website better and i have been playing with Google and instagram ads. I don’t even dislike marketing - but I don’t think I’m very good at it. I could try to pay for this competency, but I’m scared of losing bunch of money.

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#44
This is a great article on the difference between an obstinate person and a persistent person, but I'm not sure the general public perceives them the same way that Paul does.

What I've found is that many times, people like the perceived confidence that obstinacy can bring. For example, let's say that someone points out a flaw in a plan. Person A responds by saying "That's not a real problem. It doesn't matter." Person B says "Ok, that's interesting. Let's dig into it." Person A (the obstinate person who doesn't listen) usually comes across as more confident in this encounter, even though Person B (the persistent person who is engaging) may actually end up learning something new and getting a better result.

This is especially true in public forums. If you go up on a stage and do a debate, the obstinate person comes across as more confident to more people. This doesn't mean that their plan is any good. But people will vote for them, give them money, etc.

For the record, I agree with Paul's assessment that persistence is a great quality and obstinacy is not. However, it's hard to actually get this across to the public.

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#45
post #42

I often wonder into which of these two categories I fall with my epaper calendars. On the one hand, I’ve been working on this product for four years, put every free minute into it, and it still doesn’t make enough money for me to quit my job. On the other hand, the product keeps getting better as I work on it, and I have now sold 500 of them. But sometimes I feel like I can’t keep going like this. Two jobs and a fami…

1.) I don't like your name. Your computers are not invisible. They are definitely visible. If you were making an Alexa/Siri smart speaker computer that you hid in the walls, that would make sense to call it Invisible Computers. But your computer is a screen. The definition of a screen is something you look at. 2.) Simplify your workflows: combine with your github profile. This is clearly your passion. Own it. Move al…

I'm not sure about the name either. I think I need to get some help with that.

Out of the blue, what would you call it?

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#46
post #3

I wonder if a simple test for "obstinacy" would be: how much does the person write/publish?

In which direction? Most people who write/publish are fools. You can be certain about this by reading a lot and realizing most of it is garbage.

Yes, but most people who write/publish _a lot_ are not fools.

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#47
post #31

Within the context of persistent people at the top of the decision tree, how often are persistent people labeled obstinate because they disagree with another persistent person (likely their boss) on a decision that will likely lead to 2 separate but nearly successful outcomes?

What does it matter? If someone disagrees with their boss on the outcome desired, there is misalignment in the company and the bottom rung will fail

None of this matters, not even PGs post, but it's the comment section, so here we are...

The definition PG gives for an obstinate person is someone who doesn't listen, with the implication that they are "wrong". I'm just presenting a scenario that is very common in my world, where people may not be right or wrong, but differing and strong opinions lead to people being mislabeled as obstinate.

IMO, "Alignment" is a bullshit word used by people to basically say "my way or the highway". I might even say it's mostly used by obstinate people. :)

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#48

I often wonder into which of these two categories I fall with my epaper calendars. On the one hand, I’ve been working on this product for four years, put every free minute into it, and it still doesn’t make enough money for me to quit my job. On the other hand, the product keeps getting better as I work on it, and I have now sold 500 of them. But sometimes I feel like I can’t keep going like this. Two jobs and a fami…

That's cool. The news front-page screenshot & calendar use-cases appeal to me. (Although, it seems like I could just do the news FP thing myself, with "Any image URL", rather than your $3/mo service.) Is it touch interactive? Like, can I tap on a cell in the calendar to see "... and 2 more" details? Can I easily create my own replacement frame? Can I hang it on the wall in a manner where I can rotate between portrait…

You can probably create your own frame if you are careful when you open it up.

It has no touch. If you change its orientation on the wall, you have to change the orientation in the phone app.

There is no sdk but there is an api one can use for connecting third party apps.

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#49
I suspect that obstinance this is rooted in strong black/white thinking. I don't really know how this works for these people and can't experience it myself because I have just one brain. While I am flawed in many ways, I am not flawed in that particular way. I don't really understand how this works.

I find that inability to understand qualified language is a decent marker. Note I said "I suspect that often", and not "I know this is always". Black/white thinkers will reply with something like "no, that's not true, here's an example where that's not the case: [..]" Well, okay ... that's what "often" means, further weakened by the "I suspect". But for black/white thinkers it's Highlander time: there can only be one (explanation).

---

Bit of a related aside:

For the last year or so I've been using an extension to completely block people from Hacker News. The way this works is that I have two buttons: "bozo" to merely mark a post, and a list of marked posts in shown on the profile. And "block" to completely block them. Everyone has bad days, myself included, and I don't want to write people off for the occasional bad day.

But some people have a lot of bad days. And by "marking" people's posts some interesting patterns emerge. I mark a post for extreme black/white views on something like Israel and being pretty obstinate about it, and then 2 months later I see the same person with extreme black/white views on databases and being pretty obstinate about that. Are these two topics related? Not at all. But the same type of thinking is used: extremely simplistic black/white thinking with almost no room for nuance or "it depends".

Another person posted that thieves should be executed, "but if that is too extreme the chopping off of hands is also acceptable" (true story), and also rants about programming languages like they're 13, and rants about "wokeness".

The same person where a substantial number of their posts are rants about what inferior languages Go and Ruby are, also literally wishes death on politicians they disagree with, and claims "McCarthy was absolutely right" (which is a complete bollocks historical revisionism pushed by some people who are unable to understand "yes, turned out there were real Soviet spies in US gov't during the 50s, but there was zero overlap with the people McCarthy accused and he was just an unhinged nutjob who operated without any evidence against random people").

etc. etc.

What I learned from this is that by and large this kind of obstinance is not a "strong feelings about issue X"-problem, but rather a "brain just works in that way"-problem, whether that's due to black/white thinking, or something else.

There's an old joke: "A 9/11 truther, anti-vaxxer, sovereign citizen, and homeopath walk in to a bar. He orders a beer." Sometimes people are just misinformed on these issues and believe maybe one or two of them, but especially when they're knee-deep in nuttery it's just a thinking error.

I am still undecided if these people really are incapable of thinking in another way, or are just unwilling to do so. Or maybe there isn't actually any difference.

Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn

#50
I don't really agree with any of this.

Thinking there's a way to distinguish the two in the moment without you yourself being the more competent one is to believe in crystal balls. You only know for sure who was right in hindsight when everything else that could have been decided is also known.

It's a categorical error to attribute success to personality and behavioral traits. There are just as many benevolent geniuses as there are assholes at every level.

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