Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes • Hacker News Board

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#41

Post by surfingdino » Mon, Jul 08, 2024, 7:50 AM UTC

philipov wrote: post #22

everyone wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the purpose of creating a corporation.

Shareholders have limited liability. Management does not.

Management evolved language of avoiding responsibility. For example, instead of saying "use cheaper parts" they'll say "we need to focus on better use of our financial resources for increasing shareholder value". No court can pin them down for telling designers to use cheap parts, but the designers get the message. And if the designers don't get it, lower management will tell them in plain language. That shift the blame onto lower ranks while the top management is laughing all the way to the bank and move on to another high-paying job.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#42

Post by iSnow » Mon, Jul 08, 2024, 7:50 AM UTC

thangalin wrote: post #16

"Whatever the reasons (market pressures, rushing processes, inadequate certifications, fear of being fired, or poor project management), Leveson’s insights are being ignored. For example, after the first fatal Boeing 737 Max flight, why was the entire fleet not grounded indefinitely? Or not grounded after an Indonesian safety committee report uncovered multiple failures? Or not grounded when an off-duty pilot helped…

Racism. If the first fatal flight had happened to an US or European airline somewhere over US or European territory, the fleet would have been grounded for an investigation.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#43

Post by constantcrying » Mon, Jul 08, 2024, 7:50 AM UTC

coretx wrote: post #20

Plea deals rob victims from the truth they need for closure and recovery. On top of that, plea deals also undermine public trust in the rule of law. I wonder how "happy" the Judge is for being forced to give it credibility...

The criminal justice system doesn't exist to emotionally satisfy the victims.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#44

Post by anonzzzies » Mon, Jul 08, 2024, 7:51 AM UTC

b3lvedere wrote: post #39

"Boeing also agreed for the board of directors to meet with crash victims’ family members, under the agreement." So, what does this mean exactly?

And is that CEO who got that crazy $$ package part of this delegation?

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#45

Post by mulmen » Mon, Jul 08, 2024, 7:54 AM UTC

monero-xmr wrote: post #26

buildbot wrote: post #2

"The guilty plea would brand the planemaker a felon and could complicate its ability to sell products to the U.S. government. About 32% of Boeing’s nearly $78 billion in revenue last year came from its defense, space and security unit." Well that's a fun little fact

Banks are declared “too big to fail”. Banks! How can a bank be so important, and ostensibly private, that it can’t fail and let its shareholders take their licks? There is no world - none - literally no possible universe - that Boeing cannot sell to the government, or that it fails, or that its planes get grounded indefinitely, or anything even remotely close to this outcome. There are 2 plane makers of appreciable s…

Banks are not declared too big to fail. They are sometimes described that way. But banks fail all the time. It’s why the FDIC exists.

Boeing and the US government have a long and intimate relationship but it is mutual. Boeing was fully vertically integrated until it was favorable to encourage competition in the aviation industry and the US government broke the company up. Boeing is not untouchable.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#46

Post by gomijacogeo » Mon, Jul 08, 2024, 7:54 AM UTC

A truly fitting punishment would be that Boeing is prohibited from piggybacking certification of any further 737 variants.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#47

Post by kalleboo » Mon, Jul 08, 2024, 7:56 AM UTC

hdesh wrote: post #4

I wonder if the outcome would have been any different if the 737 MAX crashes had happened on the American soil and involved loss of American lives.

Even on Hacker News I saw lots of comments blaming the pilots and saying a similar accident would be impossible with U.S.-trained pilots.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#48

Post by manquer » Mon, Jul 08, 2024, 7:56 AM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #42

thangalin wrote: post #16

"Whatever the reasons (market pressures, rushing processes, inadequate certifications, fear of being fired, or poor project management), Leveson’s insights are being ignored. For example, after the first fatal Boeing 737 Max flight, why was the entire fleet not grounded indefinitely? Or not grounded after an Indonesian safety committee report uncovered multiple failures? Or not grounded when an off-duty pilot helped…

Racism. If the first fatal flight had happened to an US or European airline somewhere over US or European territory, the fleet would have been grounded for an investigation.

They even blamed the pilots badly for the accident .

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#49

Post by constantcrying » Mon, Jul 08, 2024, 7:57 AM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #37

supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

You have to get the leadership by the balls. The CEO isn't going to change a company's culture alone, but she has leverage and connections. If they know they face prison if the company plays foul in a major way, they will put pressure on their deputies to change culture. Also, fines that go up to say 10% of global revenue. That ensures that even activist shareholders take note and do not pressure the CEO to cut corne…

>If they know they face prison if the company plays foul in a major way, they will put pressure on their deputies to change culture.

It is completely ridiculous to criminally prosecute leadership for crimes which happened without their knowing/consent/acknowledgment. It would be a perversion of justice to jail someone because many levels down someone else committed a crime. The best corporate culture does not prevent criminality.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#50

Post by manquer » Mon, Jul 08, 2024, 8:04 AM UTC

HeatrayEnjoyer wrote: post #35

justinclift wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If such a convicted felon were to pardon themselves, would they be a convicted felon any more?

The president can only pardon federal crimes.

I don’t think he needs to.

they will appeal based on the insanely broad immunity ruling and get the conviction overturned on procedural loophole created by the ruling - no evidence from his presidency even for unofficial acts and justice department will not retry a sitting president.

He is likely to get the convictions even in the caroll defamation case for the same reason.

Only the fraudulent valuation case is likely survive this Supreme Court ruling.