Batteries: How cheap can they get? • Hacker News Board

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#41

Post by ManuelKiessling » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 8:38 PM UTC

duffpkg wrote: post #31

reaperman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Due to rising power costs I moved one of my homes completely to solar and battery Were you able to disconnect that home from the grid? Most places you're required to maintain a grid connection unless the home is in an exceptionally remote location. While pricing tends to be usage-based, true costs tend to be dominated by the capital expense of building base-load capacity for the few days your home might need to run…

Yes. Totally disconnected, zero power bill. That home is in a jurisdiction where that is permissible.

How do you get through winter? I’m asking in good faith, I‘m using a PV installation myself and cannot see how I could realistically get off the grid.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#42

Post by jvanderbot » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 8:40 PM UTC

BenjiWiebe wrote: post #27

jvanderbot wrote: post #17

I would love a 5-20kwh battery backup in my home, I even have a place for it. But when I called my local solar/battery installer they said that it was illegal to install grid-charged battery backups in home. I live in Minnesota. They even told me the power from a hypothetical solar rig is sold to the grid utility, not stored, and they give a discount on future winter rates as payment. This seems like a lousy deal.

Is a grid-charged battery backup different than a UPS? I guarantee there's UPSs in use in Minnesota.

I asked and they said "yeah it's the same and yeah it's still illegal."

The difference is what side of the electrical box your equipment is on.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#43

Post by philipkglass » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 8:40 PM UTC

ck2 wrote: post #35

Except we are not going to have cheap batteries and solar in the USA and never ever cheap EVs Remember how tariffs were called "asinine" when the last administration did them? Next year tariffs will double the price of batteries and solar imports, except there's no domestic production to even compete at that high price. Oh semiconductors are going to double in price too in 2025, buy soon. https://www.theverge.com/202…

Next year tariffs will double the price of batteries and solar imports, except there's no domestic production to even compete at that high price.

I agree that the tariffs are going to hurt adoption, but the US does have domestic battery and solar manufacturing. Tesla manufactures large quantities of lithium ion batteries in Nevada and Texas.

First Solar (3 manufacturing sites in Ohio): https://www.firstsolar.com/About-Us/Locations

Hanwha Qcells solar manufacturing in Georgia: https://apnews.com/article/us-solar-panel-plant-hanwha-qcell...

Actually it's faster to link this report about existing and planned North American solar manufacturing:

https://media-01.imu.nl/storage/sinovoltaics.com/14240/sinov...

There's a lot of work in progress right now but also several operating plants.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#44

Post by murkt » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 8:41 PM UTC

jvanderbot wrote: post #17

I would love a 5-20kwh battery backup in my home, I even have a place for it. But when I called my local solar/battery installer they said that it was illegal to install grid-charged battery backups in home. I live in Minnesota. They even told me the power from a hypothetical solar rig is sold to the grid utility, not stored, and they give a discount on future winter rates as payment. This seems like a lousy deal.

I have a 3.5 kWh battery backup in my apartment, since December 2022. Which is proving to be immensely helpful right now. I’m living in Kyiv, Ukraine and we have <10 hours of electricity daily these weeks, because lots of power stations are destroyed by Russians, and nuclear power stations are undergoing repairs and fuel recharge.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#45

Post by pineaux » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 8:41 PM UTC

duffpkg wrote: post #19

Lifepo4 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries for the home are pretty cheap as of today. Power storage for residential use in a 48v metal rackable linkable system with battery management system (BMS) is $89/kwh shipped/duty paid from reputable chinese suppliers CATL/Seplos etc. You have to wait for sea shipping, add $30/kwh if you want to buy it in the US today. From the same suppliers sodium batteries are currently $13…

How is this cheap? How much did you pay for the whole package?

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#46

Post by SoftTalker » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 8:42 PM UTC

jonathanlydall wrote: post #30

jvanderbot wrote: post #17

I would love a 5-20kwh battery backup in my home, I even have a place for it. But when I called my local solar/battery installer they said that it was illegal to install grid-charged battery backups in home. I live in Minnesota. They even told me the power from a hypothetical solar rig is sold to the grid utility, not stored, and they give a discount on future winter rates as payment. This seems like a lousy deal.

Aside from it benefiting energy companies, is there any justification for such a law? In South Africa we’ve had load shedding on and off since 2008. It’s becoming pretty standard for middle class homes to have inverters with batteries and optionally solar. It does create an issue though that when a load shedding window ends, a whole lot of batteries start charging all at once (especially during non-daylight hours). A…

Utilities get a local monopoly and guaranteed tariffs in exchange for the considerable investment in building out the supply grid and generating capacity, and the obligation to maintain it.

If individuals are allowed to opt-out, that changes the financial promises made to the utilities. Of course this was mostly done at a time before it was economically feasible for anyone to go off-grid with solar and batteries.

I quite honestly prefer this arrangement. I have zero desire to own and be responsible for the maintenance and safety of tens of thousands of dollars worth of on-premises solar/battery/electrical transfer switch gear. I'm quite happy to pay the local utility to run a cable to my electrical panel and have them be responsible for everything outside the walls of my house.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#47

Post by bee_rider » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 8:45 PM UTC

gorgoiler wrote: post #3

What level of subsidy do we give to batteries?

Surely it depends on what country you live in. Battery subsidies are mostly local at least.

How do we even calculate the subsidy paid to fossil fuel companies by letting them externalize the cost of their mess onto the planet? Oh well that’s for young people and future generations to care about!

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#48

Post by ssl-3 » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 8:45 PM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #13

ss64 wrote: post #4

The cost of 50AH Li-Ion batteries is getting close to the point where they may start to compete with Lead acid for gas powered cars.

Lithium batteries still have limitations with charging at low temperatures. OEMs can design systems that will warm the battery up to a temperature where it can be charged after the car is started, but it’s not nearly as simple as dropping a lead-acid battery in.

It isn't that simple today, but it can be.

Integrate the new-fangled battery (of whatever specific chemistry), the BMS, and the heater into a box with just two posts on top (just like lead acid batteries have had for over a century). It can be designed to take care of itself.

And if it's cheap enough to produce and sell, and offers good enough performance over its normal usable lifespan, then it doesn't need a diagnostic interface for sorting out issues any more than a lead acid car battery does today.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#49

Post by thrtythreeforty » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 8:47 PM UTC

duffpkg wrote: post #31

reaperman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Due to rising power costs I moved one of my homes completely to solar and battery Were you able to disconnect that home from the grid? Most places you're required to maintain a grid connection unless the home is in an exceptionally remote location. While pricing tends to be usage-based, true costs tend to be dominated by the capital expense of building base-load capacity for the few days your home might need to run…

Yes. Totally disconnected, zero power bill. That home is in a jurisdiction where that is permissible.

In jurisdictions where that's not legal, can you realistically maintain a connection for just the cost of the customer fee and draw no other power? Or are there typically other roadblocks to installing solar in such places?

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#50

Post by duffpkg » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 8:47 PM UTC

pineaux wrote: post #45

duffpkg wrote: post #19

Lifepo4 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries for the home are pretty cheap as of today. Power storage for residential use in a 48v metal rackable linkable system with battery management system (BMS) is $89/kwh shipped/duty paid from reputable chinese suppliers CATL/Seplos etc. You have to wait for sea shipping, add $30/kwh if you want to buy it in the US today. From the same suppliers sodium batteries are currently $13…

How is this cheap? How much did you pay for the whole package?

That does not include the costs for inverters and other electrical system parts. I am not endorsing these vendors but I am happy with the result. My system paid for itself in less than 18 months. I have many years of experience buying from China in industry. I purchased batteries from Docan Power and BMS/battery housings from EEL Battery. My inverters are from EG4 and UL listed. You can see current pricing on their respective websites. I would say there is some learning curve for a complete novice. The diysolarforum.com is a good vendor neutral and honest resource for information.