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Rails and Merb Merge

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Re: Rails and Merb Merge

#41

Post by jm4 »

carbon8 wrote: post #18
jm4 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can the Ruby community splinter between two competing web frameworks? The entire Ruby-using population does not need to agree on a web framework. There can be smaller communities around various projects and frameworks within the Ruby community. In fact, I would think that it would be vital to Ruby's advancement and evolution. You mention that Rails being the dominant web framework is a strength and in the same se…

Well, Rack is really changing a lot already with Ruby frameworks. Sinatra is becoming more popular for highly specialized apps, and now you can embed Sinatra and Camping apps into other Rack apps, which includes Rails edge apps. Basically what's happening is that everything in Ruby is already becoming more modular, shifting toward organized APIs, so this helps move in a direction where you can basically build a custo…

This is informative. I had never heard of Rack before. It seems very similar to Python Paste. Neat.

However, I don't see what this has to do with my original comment. It doesn't address any of the concerns I raised about the john_dahl's comment. Specifically, I'm wondering how several competing web frameworks results in splintering of the Ruby community. Isn't competition good? Don't we want a variety of tools that meet different needs?

I frequently see Merb mentioned as an alternative to Rails in response to some gripe about Rails. Developers obviously have needs that aren't met by Rails. So my question is how is this merger a positive thing for developers? What's wrong with having several tools that are used for different scenarios? Of course, 100 competing web frameworks that are essentially all the same doesn't do anyone any good, but surely there's nothing wrong with several if they specialize in different areas.

john_dahl's comment essentially applauds the merger as a unification of the Ruby community and implies that it's a disadvantage to have competition. Is that really a good thing? Developers don't benefit one iota from having a "winner".

Re: Rails and Merb Merge

#42

Post by [deleted] »

jm4 wrote: post #41
carbon8 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Rack is really changing a lot already with Ruby frameworks. Sinatra is becoming more popular for highly specialized apps, and now you can embed Sinatra and Camping apps into other Rack apps, which includes Rails edge apps. Basically what's happening is that everything in Ruby is already becoming more modular, shifting toward organized APIs, so this helps move in a direction where you can basically build a custo…

This is informative. I had never heard of Rack before. It seems very similar to Python Paste. Neat. However, I don't see what this has to do with my original comment. It doesn't address any of the concerns I raised about the john_dahl's comment. Specifically, I'm wondering how several competing web frameworks results in splintering of the Ruby community. Isn't competition good? Don't we want a variety of tools that m…

[deleted]

Re: Rails and Merb Merge

#43

Post by juliend2 »

this is huge. and it turns out that yesterday i was considering learning merb instead of rails. but for the moment i will learn rails. what is the best one to learn at the moment in order to be ready for rails 3?

Re: Rails and Merb Merge

#44

Post by thomasmallen »

Locke wrote: post #9

Wow, I almost wish it were April Fools Day... For someone who loves Merb and had decided to leave Rails behind (as much as possible), I have very mixed feelings about this. If this means Rails will start to feel more like Merb, fantastic! Otherwise? I have a feeling it'll be a long while before I really know how to feel about this... It'll be interesting to see how well this merger actually works in practice. It seem…

Merb will continue to be maintained and improved:

"To be perfectly clear: we are not abandoning the Merb project. There are many production applications running on Merb that are relying on both timely bug fixes and a clear path to the future. If you’re using Merb today, continue using Merb. If you’re considering using Merb for a project because it works better for your needs, use Merb. You will not be left in the cold and we’re going to do everything to make sure that your applications don’t get stuck in the past."

What this really means is that Merb will do what they should as an open-source project: Integrating with another. But for Merb's changes to Rails to be effective, they will have to continually improve Merb in isolation. Merb's going nowhere.

Re: Rails and Merb Merge

#45

Post by mileszs »

jm4 wrote: post #41
carbon8 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Rack is really changing a lot already with Ruby frameworks. Sinatra is becoming more popular for highly specialized apps, and now you can embed Sinatra and Camping apps into other Rack apps, which includes Rails edge apps. Basically what's happening is that everything in Ruby is already becoming more modular, shifting toward organized APIs, so this helps move in a direction where you can basically build a custo…

This is informative. I had never heard of Rack before. It seems very similar to Python Paste. Neat. However, I don't see what this has to do with my original comment. It doesn't address any of the concerns I raised about the john_dahl's comment. Specifically, I'm wondering how several competing web frameworks results in splintering of the Ruby community. Isn't competition good? Don't we want a variety of tools that m…

I agree that competition is good. There is (was) concern that loud, shallow, infantile arguments of Merb versus Rails were damaging, to an extent. If nothing else, they were really, really annoying, and too frequent. This may be the "splintering" of which john_dahl was speaking.

There are other frameworks, although they get little "press", as they lack an Engine Yard or 37signals hype-machine. In fact, if you visit ramaze.net (one of the more mature frameworks) and scroll down, you can find a listing of all the frameworks of which the ramaze people are aware. Twenty-one, including Merb AND Rails, at last count. (It is likely that not all of them are wholly distinguishable from one another. I can't say, as I haven't tried them.)

Re: Rails and Merb Merge

#46

Post by mileszs »

jackowayed wrote: post #39

So, I posted this on one of the threads for other blog posts about this, but that tread doesn't have much going on, and I want to see what people have to say about it: I'm a merbist and think this will be good for both the Merb and Rails communities. That said, I'm a little afraid it will shaft the other Ruby frameworks (Sinatra, Camping) and possibly straight ruby too. People might make interesting things only compa…

There are plenty of people in the Ruby community who avoid Rails (whether their reasons are valid or not). I think you'll find plenty of Rubyists who wish to create things outside of Rails. Whether that means they will be throwing weight behind another framework such as Ramaze, or creating a new one, I can't say. I do believe that there are enough anti-mainstream hackers in the mix now that you don't have to worry about that "scene" dying.

You're one of them, to an extent, and there's nothing wrong with that. Have at it.

Re: Rails and Merb Merge

#47

Post by mileszs »

juliend2 wrote: post #43

this is huge. and it turns out that yesterday i was considering learning merb instead of rails. but for the moment i will learn rails. what is the best one to learn at the moment in order to be ready for rails 3?

Both. They're both Ruby. The learning curve for one over the other changes very little ultimately.

In practice, however, Merb docs, tutorials, articles, howtos, et cetera, are lacking. That is reality. If you're starting from scratch w/ Ruby and her frameworks, you'll probably find Rails more newbie-friendly from a learning-materials standpoint.

Re: Rails and Merb Merge

#48

Post by gry »

jon_dahl wrote: post #19
mechanical_fish wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merb was really creative and innovative, and I'd hate to see that innovation slow down as it becomes the Establishment. All innovations either become Establishment or remain obscure. I'm perfectly happy to see Merb go Establishment. If it doesn't work out... it's not as if the project won't be forked again. Innovation won't stop. It will just have a different name and perhaps some different principals.

Innovation won't stop. It will just have a different name and perhaps some different principals. That's exactly my hope.

If, heaven forbid, Merb's best doesn't make it to Rails and it falls fallow, I have a hunch Merb takes root again. There are too many SCM clones and forks for it to disappear. Granted, time and energy is lost. Yet along the way, there'll be another Merb. Sometimes a spoon is a better fork.

Re: Rails and Merb Merge

#49

Post by allertonm »

Do I detect the hand of Benchmark Capital here?

Edit: I wrote the orginal comment in a hurry - but what I was getting at was that Engine Yard took quite a bit of cash from Benchmark. I somehow doubt that a move like this could have happened without their approval, and I have to wonder if they instigated it (and why...)

Re: Rails and Merb Merge

#50

Post by ksvs »

allertonm wrote: post #49

Do I detect the hand of Benchmark Capital here? Edit: I wrote the orginal comment in a hurry - but what I was getting at was that Engine Yard took quite a bit of cash from Benchmark. I somehow doubt that a move like this could have happened without their approval, and I have to wonder if they instigated it (and why...)

Hmmm.

http://www.benchmark.com/news/sv/2008/10_21_2008.php

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