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Indonesia’s Emergence

insidestory.org.au

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Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#41

Post by graemep »

krageon wrote: post #29
EdwardDiego wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Yes, but, colonial rule was a) not at all sustainable b) probably thoroughly corrupt in favour of different rulers and c) directly responsible for the shape of Indonesian politics today. So, yeah.

The point is that these colonies were first fucked by being colonies and then fucked during the process of not being colonies anymore. Nobody is implying colonial rule is better.

On the other hand its not that hard to find people in former colonies who think colonial rule was better - if they have been sufficiently badly run since independence. Colonial rule is obviously worse than honest democratic government, but that is not what a lot of countries have had.

I am a citizen of both a former British colony and a British citizen and I have fairly recent ancestry from another former British colony. I suspect some of my ancestors support the British (because they seem to have up to my grandparents generation) because it allowed them freedom of movement, or because they had been oppressed by the previous ruling castes.

Colonial rule in many places was only possible because it had significant local support. A good example is that a tiny number of British people were not holding places like India through force of arms.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#42

Post by BurningFrog »

csomar wrote: post #19
defrost wrote: post #6

The US and UN sanctioned the Act of No Choice , a rigged "vote" that saw Indonesia take over West Papua and continue with a largely unreported brutality to this day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Free_Choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_conflict

Most of the independence stories are complete B.S. They were enabled by the US to kick out the Europeans out of their colonies. It has resulted in the creation on some of the most corrupt and mismanaged governments and centralization of power in the hand of these rulers. Indonesia could have been 20-30 separate countries. The punchline is that this is hurting the US even more now as that keeping these governments ali…

You can think of today's Indonesia as a Javanese colonial empire.

It's hard to say if being ruled from Jakarta is better than being ruled from Amsterdam.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#43

Post by keybored »

chilling wrote: post #4

Modern history of Indonesia is also brutal, strange and very hard to grasp and accept. Just 6 months ago, a new generation choose a murderer, linked with previous coup as their new president because he was looking cute and post dancing videos on tiktok. [I live in Indonesia as an expact]

Thanks for the disclaimer. I’m not gonna put any weight to an expat saying that someone chose someone Because He Was (Looking) Cute.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#44

Post by keybored »

Apocryphon wrote: post #15
defrost wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Late? They were early adopters of appalling character leaders, Suharto was elected in 1968 after seizing power and self appointing in 1967. He was repeatedly elected for thirty years (with varying amounts of opposition and rigging during those decades).

I meant specifically the contemporary populist wave since Brexit or so.

When someone points to something in the 60’s, it’s time to admit that your presumption that this is part of some outside wave might not be accurate.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#45

Post by [deleted] »

keybored wrote: post #44
Apocryphon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant specifically the contemporary populist wave since Brexit or so.

When someone points to something in the 60’s, it’s time to admit that your presumption that this is part of some outside wave might not be accurate.

[deleted]

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#46

Post by Apocryphon »

keybored wrote: post #44
Apocryphon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant specifically the contemporary populist wave since Brexit or so.

When someone points to something in the 60’s, it’s time to admit that your presumption that this is part of some outside wave might not be accurate.

But that someone is wrong. Pointing out past strongmen (which both Suharto- and Sukarno, really, were) have led Indonesia in the distant past is not the same as Subianto being democratically elected into office and replacing the mainstream Widodo and ending the Era Reformasi. Subianto exists in the same company as Duterte, Modi, Erdogan, Bolsonaro, Meloni, Milei; 2010s and onwards figures.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#47

Post by Apocryphon »

rsynnott wrote: post #37
Apocryphon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant specifically the contemporary populist wave since Brexit or so.

I think it's easy to see Brexit and Trump as the start of this in retrospect, but it goes back further; Burlusconi is a particularly glaring example.

Berlusconi is a perfect precursor to this type of character. But I'd say Conte and the Five Star Movement is far more populist and part of a global wave than Bunga-Bunga was.

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#48

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

One thing I don’t understand is how Indonesia became an Islamic nation. One of the islands, Bali, is Hindu as I understand. That fits my expectations more given the geographical location. Is there some past history of religious brutality in this story?

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#49

Post by Aerbil313 »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #48

One thing I don’t understand is how Indonesia became an Islamic nation. One of the islands, Bali, is Hindu as I understand. That fits my expectations more given the geographical location. Is there some past history of religious brutality in this story?

> It came on ships and boats. It travelled with spices and silk. Swords remained in the scabbards, there was hardly any bloodshed.

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/how-islam-came-to-dominate...

Re: Indonesia’s Emergence

#50

Post by elthor89 »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #48

One thing I don’t understand is how Indonesia became an Islamic nation. One of the islands, Bali, is Hindu as I understand. That fits my expectations more given the geographical location. Is there some past history of religious brutality in this story?

I don’t have the source, but I read that before the Dutch VOC came there were also quite a lot of Arabic traders active in the region that brought with them their religion.
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