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IE10's 'Do-Not-Track' Default Dies Quick Death

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Re: IE10's 'Do-Not-Track' Default Dies Quick Death

#41
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then there is nothing left to track Isn't that the whole point? Websites may not have interest in tracking disabling policies, but a lot of people do. Maybe these advertising companies ought to incentivize users to opt-in to sell their data instead of the other way around.

The whole business model is that users don't care if they're tracked, so let's track them (and others) and do things for them that we couldn't before I can see Google fully implementing DNT on the basis that users don't care, and for the few that do they're happy to comply But making it default to on, especially if no one gives a damn is the death knell to the whole business model Suddenly you have to pay for everyth…

>Suddenly you have to pay for everything.

False dichotomy. It's not "targeted ads vs no content on the internet". People will just have to use generic ads, not targeted ones. I don't think there will be any meaningful difference in profit, and even if there is, then so be it.

Re: IE10's 'Do-Not-Track' Default Dies Quick Death

#42
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sites have no obligation to obey it and it will give users a false sense of security. Until appropriate legislation comes into play. It worked reasonably well with the Do Not Call lists.

Or if a large portion of the industry decides to voluntarily adopt the standard, to counter the threat of legislation. A number of large ad networks have already announced support for DNT. Sure, there will always be sites that ignore the header, but there's also a realistic chance that it will give users a meaningful choice about how their behavioral data is used by many of the biggest sites they use most often.

As the CTO of an adserving company, I can confirm that we consider (too) strict legislation a big threat, and as such are more than willing to adopt initiatives like the DNT header.

Re: IE10's 'Do-Not-Track' Default Dies Quick Death

#43
I apologize in advance that this will probably end up looking a bit like a rant.

I'm sorry, but what is the deal with web-based tracking? I see comments like

> Whenever you visit a website with an ad, DoubleClick knows you looked at that article, and uses that to build a profile about your preferences. I don't think when your average joe reads an article that it is fair that their preferences are being tracked in this way.

and I honestly wonder how this sentiment can be so common, given the realities of our current society (note: this comment is not meant to say anything bad about that comment's author, it's just a convenient example of a trend in the discourse on this topic).

First, we give up many "rights" as tradeoffs for other things that we want. We have the right to the pay from our jobs, but that doesn't mean that we are entitled to get things from the store for free. We have to give up ownership rights of our money in order to trade it for goods and services. We have the right to free speech, but that doesn't mean that someone can't ask us to leave their home or other property if we say something that upsets them. We give up our right to say whatever we want by going onto someone else's property. This sort of situation is so common that it would be impossible for me to list all of the times in which we are faced with it here. However, this argument would not be complete unless I also stated that web-based tracking is in exactly this category: someone has set up a situation where your computer can exchange data with their server. However, in doing so, it is possible that they will notice that you have done so and keep a record of this fact. In other words, if you, through your computer, communicate with a company or individual, that company or individual may know that you communicated with them and what the contents of those communications were. You are giving up your right not to be known to have performed a behavior by a set of potential witnesses in exchange for performing that behavior in front of those witnesses. It's unreasonable to say that, just because you are communicating through computerized agents the other party should not be able to keep a record of your exchange.

Second, it is unfathomable (edit: To me. Please, tell me how your opinion differs) that this could be an issue for people because this is the state in which we constantly live. Every time you leave your house, your neighbors may take notice. Every time you go to the store, your actions are recorded (tracked!) by security cameras. The clerk knows what you bought and may recognize you as a regular customer. If you use a credit or loyalty card, the store keeps keeps a log (tracks) your purchases and builds a demographic profile. At a casino, the floor manager watches you gamble over security cameras. If they notice you winning a lot, they may ask you to leave for the day. I could go on like this all day. The point is that there are all kinds of times where we are tracked and where the only way to opt out is not to have dealings with the tracking entity or to not go out in public. There are all kinds of businesses built around or supplemented by tracking people. It seems to me that the tracking-things-you-witness ship has already sailed and if people wish to bring it back into harbor, they will first need to establish a reasonable test that makes it clear when tracking is actually abusive. It seems very unlikely to me that any test that wasn't specifically designed to do so would label all internet-based tracking as abusive, as some people seem to do, while calling these other behaviors OK.

Am I wrong? Am I just an asshole?

Re: IE10's 'Do-Not-Track' Default Dies Quick Death

#44

I apologize in advance that this will probably end up looking a bit like a rant. I'm sorry, but what is the deal with web-based tracking ? I see comments like > Whenever you visit a website with an ad, DoubleClick knows you looked at that article, and uses that to build a profile about your preferences. I don't think when your average joe reads an article that it is fair that their preferences are being tracked in th…

I think you're just upset because DNT might affect your income?

Tracking does not mean looking at server logs (or by analogy, reviewing security camera footage), it means things like cookies, Flash cookies, beacons and KISSmetrics.

Chances are DNT idea will have little effect. People raised issues with cookies back in the 1990's and in rerospect it hasn't impeded websites from tracking. People were forced to opt-in to cookies and everyone became desensitised to them over time. Now people don't even think about not accepting cookies. Tracking has gotten very aggressive though. Some of the behavioral tracking ideas are really pushing the limits.

DNT is hardly a draconian measure. Be glad that the web is still very much unregulated in comparison to meatspace.

Re: IE10's 'Do-Not-Track' Default Dies Quick Death

#45

I apologize in advance that this will probably end up looking a bit like a rant. I'm sorry, but what is the deal with web-based tracking ? I see comments like > Whenever you visit a website with an ad, DoubleClick knows you looked at that article, and uses that to build a profile about your preferences. I don't think when your average joe reads an article that it is fair that their preferences are being tracked in th…

There's a difference between a right that you are aware that you are giving in exchange for a service, and a right that you are unaware that you are giving. The way in which ad companies track users is so obscure that most people cannot be expected to be giving reasonable consent.

Re: IE10's 'Do-Not-Track' Default Dies Quick Death

#46
post #3

The whole concept of DNT is just stupid. It's misleading users and won't work. By telling users you have better privacy simply because your browser adds a random header tag onto requests you're misleading them. Sites have no obligation to obey it and it will give users a false sense of security. We already have proven, well defined method of DNT already: private browsing. This works by simply removing resources after…

I agree with your critique of DNT, but private browsing isn't magic, there's plenty a bad actor could do to track you regardless of what you throw away at the end of the session, which means the same critique applies (unless you're using it for it's intended purpose, privacy from other users of your computer, and even then it's got holes).

Re: IE10's 'Do-Not-Track' Default Dies Quick Death

#47
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole business model is that users don't care if they're tracked, so let's track them (and others) and do things for them that we couldn't before I can see Google fully implementing DNT on the basis that users don't care, and for the few that do they're happy to comply But making it default to on, especially if no one gives a damn is the death knell to the whole business model Suddenly you have to pay for everyth…

> Suddenly you have to pay for everything. False dichotomy. It's not "targeted ads vs no content on the internet". People will just have to use generic ads, not targeted ones. I don't think there will be any meaningful difference in profit, and even if there is, then so be it.

Good luck selling "generic" anything to someone.

Re: IE10's 'Do-Not-Track' Default Dies Quick Death

#49
post #44

I apologize in advance that this will probably end up looking a bit like a rant. I'm sorry, but what is the deal with web-based tracking ? I see comments like > Whenever you visit a website with an ad, DoubleClick knows you looked at that article, and uses that to build a profile about your preferences. I don't think when your average joe reads an article that it is fair that their preferences are being tracked in th…

I think you're just upset because DNT might affect your income? Tracking does not mean looking at server logs (or by analogy, reviewing security camera footage), it means things like cookies, Flash cookies, beacons and KISSmetrics. Chances are DNT idea will have little effect. People raised issues with cookies back in the 1990's and in rerospect it hasn't impeded websites from tracking. People were forced to opt-in t…

What browser forces you to opt-in to cookies?

Re: IE10's 'Do-Not-Track' Default Dies Quick Death

#50
post #3

The whole concept of DNT is just stupid. It's misleading users and won't work. By telling users you have better privacy simply because your browser adds a random header tag onto requests you're misleading them. Sites have no obligation to obey it and it will give users a false sense of security. We already have proven, well defined method of DNT already: private browsing. This works by simply removing resources after…

I agree with your critique of DNT, but private browsing isn't magic, there's plenty a bad actor could do to track you regardless of what you throw away at the end of the session, which means the same critique applies (unless you're using it for it's intended purpose, privacy from other users of your computer, and even then it's got holes).

How?
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