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TinyLetter shut down by Mailchimp, so I built the letterdrop

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Re: TinyLetter shut down by Mailchimp, so I built the letterdrop

#41

Post by FireInsight »

Tomte wrote: post #39
newaccount74 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the question whether machines can hold copyright is decisively shut and closed That's just a small part of the question. Some of the questions we still need answers for are: 1) If ChatGPT produces an answer that is very similar to something it was trained on, can you use that answer? Or do you need a license from the original author? If you do need a license, how do you figure out if an answer is close enough to so…

Those questions are all interesting in themselves, but utterly irrelevant here. The first one asks if someone else than the „prompter“ should have copyright. The second one asks about other people‘s copyright. The third one is answered by case law, including the Monkey Selfie case. The wildlife photography setup is very much comparable to your typewriter there.

If there's a thousand monkeys with a thousand typewriters, and they all write a single page to a thousand-page epic, is the scientist allowed to copyright and sell it as a book?

Re: TinyLetter shut down by Mailchimp, so I built the letterdrop

#42

Post by hnfong »

Tomte wrote: post #39
newaccount74 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the question whether machines can hold copyright is decisively shut and closed That's just a small part of the question. Some of the questions we still need answers for are: 1) If ChatGPT produces an answer that is very similar to something it was trained on, can you use that answer? Or do you need a license from the original author? If you do need a license, how do you figure out if an answer is close enough to so…

Those questions are all interesting in themselves, but utterly irrelevant here. The first one asks if someone else than the „prompter“ should have copyright. The second one asks about other people‘s copyright. The third one is answered by case law, including the Monkey Selfie case. The wildlife photography setup is very much comparable to your typewriter there.

The wildlife photography setup had no human intervention when the photo was created since the monkey took the selfie.

In this case TinyLetter was "written" by GPT4o with a LOT of prompting. Have you even read it? https://github.com/i365dev/LetterDrop/blob/main/docs/CDDR/ap...

As always, some random person in a tech forum thinks they have all the answers to non-trivial legal questions...

I mean, we haven't even talked about jurisdiction issues yet. US case law does not apply globally.

Re: TinyLetter shut down by Mailchimp, so I built the letterdrop

#43

Post by eknkc »

stavros wrote: post #10

The fact that this whole project was generated by GPT without any human duration is... something. I don't know exactly what, but it was interesting enough to upvote.

Yeah, I took a look at the code and the prompt documentation (which is in Chinese) and I came to the conclusion “why?”. It is interesting though.

Re: TinyLetter shut down by Mailchimp, so I built the letterdrop

#44

Post by braza »

khold_stare wrote: post #9
dvt wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think code generation is, generally speaking, pretty awful, but contributing to an LLM prompt is kind of an interesting evolution of software design. With that said, I don't really think it saves a lot of time (the author's Youtube videos[1] are literally like 10+ hours of messing with prompts and copy-pasting code), whereas the product in itself isn't particularly complicated. [1] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?…

And the code is godawful. Just look at this mess for internationalization: https://github.com/i365dev/LetterDrop/blob/main/app%2Fsrc%2F... . The code is unmaintainable by a human - there is a ton of unnecessary duplication, a gigantic html string instead of something like tsx, etc etc. I don't know how the OP can trust this output - I certainly don't.

> And the code is godawful

You would be surprised on how big corporations are running on not so elegant code and generating revenue all over.

I used to be more principled around code best practices and having things well written, but with the LLMs I just discovered that unless your in a very critical domain where performance or maintenability is a hard requirement, the LLMs with bad code just solve the problem and everyone can be happy.

Re: TinyLetter shut down by Mailchimp, so I built the letterdrop

#45

Post by ChicagoDave »

Tomte wrote: post #15

MIT license? If it‘s all ML-generated, then there is no human author and therefore no copyright. It‘s in the public domain, isn‘t it?

He said ChatGPT so LLM created. “Fair use” may be the current legal defense, but who knows if or what Congress will do. The lobbying power is definitely in the LLM owners and not copyright holders or creatives.

But there’s a non-zero chance LLMs won’t face a class action lawsuit.

Re: TinyLetter shut down by Mailchimp, so I built the letterdrop

#46

Post by croes »

j16sdiz wrote: post #5
gkdktstjtsjfy wrote: post #3

"I used the GPT-4o model to generate the code for LetterDrop. That means the code is generated by the AI model, and I only need to provide the prompts to the model. This approach is very efficient and can save a lot of time. I've also recorded a video to show how to create the LetterDrop project using the GPT-4o model. That also means you can easily customize the code by changing the prompts. You can find the prompts…

This is from the "How to contribute?" section in readme. Personally, I found it unbelievable. The author think contribute should change the prompt instead of the code.. To my best knowledge, these kind of code generation are non deterministic. This make it impossible to audit for correctness.

Isn't GPT4 non deterministic?

So the same prompt won't necessarily give the same result

Re: TinyLetter shut down by Mailchimp, so I built the letterdrop

#47

Post by croes »

braza wrote: post #44
khold_stare wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the code is godawful. Just look at this mess for internationalization: https://github.com/i365dev/LetterDrop/blob/main/app%2Fsrc%2F... . The code is unmaintainable by a human - there is a ton of unnecessary duplication, a gigantic html string instead of something like tsx, etc etc. I don't know how the OP can trust this output - I certainly don't.

> And the code is godawful You would be surprised on how big corporations are running on not so elegant code and generating revenue all over. I used to be more principled around code best practices and having things well written, but with the LLMs I just discovered that unless your in a very critical domain where performance or maintenability is a hard requirement, the LLMs with bad code just solve the problem and ev…

Are these the same companies we hear about because the got hacked because of security holes in their code?

Re: TinyLetter shut down by Mailchimp, so I built the letterdrop

#48

Post by [deleted] »

Tomte wrote: post #26
portaouflop wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah so all Legal disputes around AI are completely shut and closed cases? I think it’s rather we have a very small number of reference cases from the past, but since things changed dramatically since then everything is still up in the air

No, just the question whether machines can hold copyright is decisively shut and closed, until the laws are changed. Many other questions are debated. Always fun to see the „AI is special, no rules apply“ crowd.

[deleted]

Re: TinyLetter shut down by Mailchimp, so I built the letterdrop

#49

Post by braza »

croes wrote: post #47
braza wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the code is godawful You would be surprised on how big corporations are running on not so elegant code and generating revenue all over. I used to be more principled around code best practices and having things well written, but with the LLMs I just discovered that unless your in a very critical domain where performance or maintenability is a hard requirement, the LLMs with bad code just solve the problem and ev…

Are these the same companies we hear about because the got hacked because of security holes in their code?

It’s not a direct relationship as far as I know. The point is that maybe the LLMs gave enablement for the people that thinks about software as a “means to an end” and I think it’s completely fine.

I like elegant code, well written and easy to maintain; but for a long time the field of programming started to develop the pristine idea that the programming _was the end_ and not as a way to achieve something.

What’s the post author made was to bring it in a more latent way saying that you could use programming to achieve the same results but you do not need.

Re: TinyLetter shut down by Mailchimp, so I built the letterdrop

#50

Post by latexr »

braza wrote: post #44
khold_stare wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the code is godawful. Just look at this mess for internationalization: https://github.com/i365dev/LetterDrop/blob/main/app%2Fsrc%2F... . The code is unmaintainable by a human - there is a ton of unnecessary duplication, a gigantic html string instead of something like tsx, etc etc. I don't know how the OP can trust this output - I certainly don't.

> And the code is godawful You would be surprised on how big corporations are running on not so elegant code and generating revenue all over. I used to be more principled around code best practices and having things well written, but with the LLMs I just discovered that unless your in a very critical domain where performance or maintenability is a hard requirement, the LLMs with bad code just solve the problem and ev…

Everyone, that is, except for the customers dealing with buggy slow products that will eventually be breached and leak their data. And the good developers who now have to hunt for dumb bugs without clues for where to look because the person who generated the code can’t help either.
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