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The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

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Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#41

Post by btouellette »

jordanpg wrote: post #33

Whether CS grads know this or that tech is irrelevant. What matters is are they curious and how quickly they can self teach this or that tech. And besides, learning the basics of git should be an afterthought for someone being hired for a programming job!! Come on.* * Not gatekeeping here, I'm just trying to say that in the spectrum of tasks an entry-level programmer will need to get good at, git is a minor footnote.…

If you are curious and able to self teach effectively I'm impressed if you get through an entire CS undergrad without picking up the basics of git

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#42

Post by poincaredisk »

cellis wrote: post #35
knighthack wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Git is not just a fad; it's a literal underpinning of most serious software development these days, especially if you need to work with others. That a CS grad doesn't even know basic Git is telling not of their degree, but of the individual themselves - that they have no desire to learn beyond what's taught, and couldn't even be bothered to look into the requirements of the industry that they want to work in. I argue…

As someone who has used GIT a fair amount over the last 15 years, it has literally one of the worst developer experiences, right up there with C, python’s package management, cuda kernel development or shader debugging, ffmpeg, Scala, MongoDB, and Rust. All of those tools are very useful in todays world but they’re not necessary to do the job,and unless I’m specifically hiring for that skillset I wouldn’t ding anyone…

I'm probably weird, because I like git, C, Python package management, and Rust. I dislike MongoDB and don't really know the rest

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#44

Post by noahtallen »

serf wrote: post #24

who cares? git is a tool, not a discipline. It's made to facilitate work, not to create a whole knowledge domain unto itself. I wouldn't fault a seasoned and well trained mechanic for not knowing the specifics of a specialty tool necessitating the need to find the manual; similarly although git is the current VCS-ish thing of choice right now, it doesn't represent all of computer science.

It’s a fair point. At the same time, I think it’s pretty important to cover VCS at some point in college. My CS degree included a couple classes with projects where we did project management, code review, VCS, working with stakeholders, design, etc. —- most of that is just part of life in programming. It’s good to at least touch on it in college.

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#45

Post by WolfeReader »

qludes wrote: post #16
knighthack wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Git is not just a fad; it's a literal underpinning of most serious software development these days, especially if you need to work with others. That a CS grad doesn't even know basic Git is telling not of their degree, but of the individual themselves - that they have no desire to learn beyond what's taught, and couldn't even be bothered to look into the requirements of the industry that they want to work in. I argue…

Even if they're focused on theoretical CS they should still be using git to upload their tex files somewhere in 2024. And from an undergrad degree I'd expect both an OS class and an algorithm or datastructurs course that would use some kind of VCS. Or maybe all that doesn't exist when you attend Canadian Chromebook degree mills?

Why would an algorithms and data structures course be the place to teach Git? It is not an algorithm or a data structure.

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#46

Post by ndriscoll »

9659 wrote: post #19
cranberryturkey wrote: post #3

I've worked with hundreds of CS grads, the worst programmer I ever came across (as far as readibility of his code) had a master's degree in CS from stanford.

It could be they are working at a level higher than you understand. Not being snarky, but the elite schools are significantly advanced. Imagine learning algorithms from Knuth (yes, I know he hasn't taught undergraduates in 50 years). Looking at the results after being taught by Dr. Smith at Generic State University, you might be unable to recognize the genius.

In a professional setting, your primary concern is generally to produce work that's understandable to your coworkers, whatever that means. Just getting the computer to do what you want is generally not that hard. In that regard, "genius" in programming is more like Feynman turning complicated calculations into simple pictures, and less like von Neumann instantly calculating the infinite series in the fly and train puzzle.

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#47

Post by cbm-vic-20 »

cellis wrote: post #35
knighthack wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Git is not just a fad; it's a literal underpinning of most serious software development these days, especially if you need to work with others. That a CS grad doesn't even know basic Git is telling not of their degree, but of the individual themselves - that they have no desire to learn beyond what's taught, and couldn't even be bothered to look into the requirements of the industry that they want to work in. I argue…

As someone who has used GIT a fair amount over the last 15 years, it has literally one of the worst developer experiences, right up there with C, python’s package management, cuda kernel development or shader debugging, ffmpeg, Scala, MongoDB, and Rust. All of those tools are very useful in todays world but they’re not necessary to do the job,and unless I’m specifically hiring for that skillset I wouldn’t ding anyone…

Sure, but among those things you listed, source control systems are fundamental to working on projects with other people. If a candidate hasn't encountered any source control system (not just git), you should seriously consider what it will take to train this person on not just the tooling, but the concepts as well.

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#48

Post by [deleted] »

pixelmonkey wrote: post #25

I think every CS undergrad (or self-taught programmer) should run through the Harvard "CS50x" course, and supplement it with the MIT "Missing Semester" course. This way you're guaranteed to have a bit of C, clang, make, Python, git, UNIX shell command, and GitHub understanding by the time you enter the industry as a programmer. I wrote a little guide to how to do this here: https://gist.github.com/amontalenti/dabeba3…

[deleted]

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#49

Post by the_snooze »

mr_mitm wrote: post #34
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #13

CS degrees aren’t meant to teach any particular skill. They should be teaching general knowledge that helps you adapt to whatever the FOTM is in industry. Realistically you can learn to use git in less than one day. It just shouldn’t be a significant barrier to hiring someone. None of the specific languages or software I learned during my degree do I even use now in my current role.

To expand on that, and maybe my view is a bit too traditional, but my understanding is that universities ought to prepare you to become a scientist. At least that's how it was historically. They are not meant to be "vocational training plus" or to subsidize the industry by training the work force for them. (It might be different for colleges, I'm mainly speaking from a European perspective.) I know times have changed…

I'm a researcher in one of the more "applied" subfields of CS (security and privacy), and we absolutely use standard software engineering tools day-to-day. You're not going to be a productive member of a research group if you don't know how to navigate the tools of the trade. Research isn't about using Git, Bash, or Docker, but you're dead weight if you can't wield those.

Here's a serious research venue asking for technical artifacts for reproducability: shell scripts, VMs, Docker containers, configs, READMEs, etc. https://petsymposium.org/artifacts.php

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#50

Post by jmull »

knighthack wrote: post #14
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #13

CS degrees aren’t meant to teach any particular skill. They should be teaching general knowledge that helps you adapt to whatever the FOTM is in industry. Realistically you can learn to use git in less than one day. It just shouldn’t be a significant barrier to hiring someone. None of the specific languages or software I learned during my degree do I even use now in my current role.

Git is not just a fad; it's a literal underpinning of most serious software development these days, especially if you need to work with others. That a CS grad doesn't even know basic Git is telling not of their degree, but of the individual themselves - that they have no desire to learn beyond what's taught, and couldn't even be bothered to look into the requirements of the industry that they want to work in. I argue…

A couple things...

First, git doesn't especially solve problems that CS majors have until they are near the end of their courses. The need to manage collaboration, organization, and change in a code base is trivial until pretty late in a CS program, and typically never gets past basic.

Second, the context here is the git command-line interface. People can and do use git extensively without it.

Third, git's not exactly perfect. Personally, I'll be a little sad if git remains the de facto standard source control in the long term... it's not bad, but we can do better.

I think lack of knowledge of git commands in a CS grad would be essentially uncorrelated with future professional success.

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