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True Defamation [pdf]

journaloffreespeechlaw.org

41–50 of 69 posts

Re: True Defamation [pdf]

#41
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hiding the truth seems like the exact opposite of that. It seems like “true defamation” could be a lie of omission. If someone harps on about a past misdeed but omits N years of atonement, that’s misleading, even if true.

You can historically prove a misdeed, but how do you prove atonement other than a prison sentence ? Even then, how does that prove change ?

If the goal of your prison system is rehabilitation, then the fair thing to do is assuming they changed. Possibly even if the only purpose of imprisonment was punishment.

This depends on risk of course. You and society shouldn't be exposed to undue risk because of that assumption. But limitations on the offenders freedom to - for instance - perform certain jobs after their release should be decided by a court, not the general population.

Re: True Defamation [pdf]

#42
I don't think that defamation is the right lens to view the arguably legitimate cases here through, a better one may be harassment or privacy violation.

Re: True Defamation [pdf]

#43
Skimmed it, so perhaps I missed something, but what is the purpose of reputation if negative facts can never be incorporated into one’s reputation?

Seems like the harm caused to a person through true defamation is outweighed by the benefit to society of holding people to account for bad behavior.

Re: True Defamation [pdf]

#44
This article, and I suspect much of "journal" it is published in, is an attempt to recast right-wing complaints about cancel culture into respectable legal language. Make it appear (in true right wing fashion) as if they are defending some time honored truth that has recently been corrupted.

I don't have the knowledge or scholarship to go point by point verifying or refuting the actual article, and it does bring up up a lot of interesting points.

But I beg you not to be suckered by academic phrasing, calls to the past or the mere length of the article. How we treat defamation should be based on what has the best outcomes for society today, and you should be able to come to you own conclusions about what a world where "true defamation" is prohibited would look like.

Re: True Defamation [pdf]

#45
post #11
post #7

I've only skimmed the paper, but I didn't find anything that would clearly distinguish between things that harm someone's reputation in a justifiable way, and things that harm it in an unjustifiable way. For example, if the CEO of a startup has previously been convicted multiple times for financial fraud, it would both hurt their reputation and be beneficial to potential investors to know this. But what if it's only…

"Are there good solutions for this problem somewhere?" There are no simple solutions to a problem this complex as human trust. But I really do not see, how I can I trust humans more, if it would be illegal to say true things about the past. Truth may never be hidden, if you want real trust. And there need to be more consequences of lying. And people should accept, that people change. If someone was stupid in their te…

"I will probably also not trust this guy in 2 years, unless he can convincingly explain why and how he changed."

As you correctly say, 'there are no simple solutions to a problem this complex as human trust' but your last point is telling. Let's assume your villain provides proof well beyond reasonable doubt that he has actually changed for the better the fact remains that most people will always remember the fact—even many, many decades later. Moreover, I'd suggest that incident forever changes one's perception of the person even if it's almost imperceptibly small.

I claim no great expertise in human nature but from my observations of others and of myself I'd suggest that it is human nature to retain these negative images even if one has no logical reason whatsoever to do so.

It seems to me this is one of the basic underpinnings that drives defamation and why so many have such strong opinions about it.

For instance, to my knowledge I've never been defamed in public nor do I know of any reason why anyone would bother defaming me. I'm hardly controversial, and although I'm certainly no saint, I can't think of anything I've done that's bad enough to warrant someone pursuing defamation against me. (No doubt, there have been many occasions where I've been called an idiot or perhaps even a ratbag in private but I don't consider these amount to defamation.)

Nevertheless, I remain mindful that I could be wrongfully defamed in public for the very reason that others will remember the fact well into the future even though the claim was without merit.

Perhaps this is an evolutionary trait developed out of self-protection or similar, but whatever the underlying reason many remain mindful of the potential damage defamation can cause whether a claim is factual or not.

Incidentally, I know someone who committed a misdemeanor as a youth many decades ago and has been well behaved and kept out of trouble since. That said, on rare occasions someone will still mention the fact.

No doubt the right to have certain facts about oneself forgotten is a complicated matter, and if opinions were scaled just about everyone would have a different view—and, no doubt, those views would again vary according to one's perception of the claimed or actual wrongdoing (if plotted, I'd venture to suggest everyone's opinions would be a 3D graph and no two graphs would the same).

As the old parable goes 'try to please all and you'll please none'.

Re: True Defamation [pdf]

#47
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Are there good solutions for this problem somewhere?" There are no simple solutions to a problem this complex as human trust. But I really do not see, how I can I trust humans more, if it would be illegal to say true things about the past. Truth may never be hidden, if you want real trust. And there need to be more consequences of lying. And people should accept, that people change. If someone was stupid in their te…

"I will probably also not trust this guy in 2 years, unless he can convincingly explain why and how he changed." As you correctly say, 'there are no simple solutions to a problem this complex as human trust' but your last point is telling. Let's assume your villain provides proof well beyond reasonable doubt that he has actually changed for the better the fact remains that most people will always remember the fact—ev…

'try to please all and you'll please none'.

Yes. But I do not want to try to please all.

In case of doubt, for the (potential) victims.

I am dealing right now with a case, where a pedophile tries to sneak into some semi public group activity/festival I am part of. The most frustrating thing is exactly this, some people saying the past where he was convicted is gone (or the conviction wrong) and he changed. Except it isn't and he has not changed (I am certain of because of some things I have heard him say, which are sadly not recorded). And if the conviction would not exist officially anymore, I would have allmost nothing solid against him, that he is in fact not just some weirdo, but a dangerous weirdo who should not be welcome, where I go with my children.

edit:

"Let's assume your villain provides proof well beyond reasonable doubt that he has actually changed"

And if there is no doubt, there is no doubt. Then it would be fine. But I want to judge myself, with as many facts as I can get and not blindly trust. I know people can change. But if people hide their past, I assume they have not actually processed it.

Re: True Defamation [pdf]

#48
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hiding the truth seems like the exact opposite of that. It seems like “true defamation” could be a lie of omission. If someone harps on about a past misdeed but omits N years of atonement, that’s misleading, even if true.

You can historically prove a misdeed, but how do you prove atonement other than a prison sentence ? Even then, how does that prove change ?

> but how do you prove atonement

Accumulated years of not repeating the mistake. And people will disagree on how many are necessary.

Re: True Defamation [pdf]

#49

One point not covered but clearly understood tacitly by the author is that the representativeness of a fact degrades over time. While it may be true that someone did something 10 years ago, that fact may not be a true reflection of their character today. Thus a statement may be technically true, but practically false, and thus should be considered defamatory (under the modern American definition).

I like this notion (that any ancient past actions must carry facts of subsequent actions) better than trying to push a "right to be forgotten."

Re: True Defamation [pdf]

#50
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There aren't five cases in the Swedish court system where this has been relevant. There's only really been two cases. One is a case where a Swedish Christian Democrat politician brought up what the opposing council in a certain dispute had done previously and was convicted of defamation for this. Another is a case where a Swedish journalist was convicted of defamation for that he brought up that a guy who was suing p…

OK, so it's not actually a big problem. I can't identify the first case, the second sounds like Lamotte, and if so, it's not a journalist but a YouTube beggar catering to a neofascist audience. To me it's obvious that you either ignore or is unaware of constitutional limitations of the criminalisation of defamation, notably in ECHR and three constitutional laws. If you spread defamatory 'truths' in a free speech sett…

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