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ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

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Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#41

Post by mk_stjames »

rramadass wrote: post #40

Coincidentally, i have been recently watching/reading a bunch of videos/articles on ASML and their technology. Can some experts/knowledgeable folks here actually explain the technology in ELI5 (and above) terms? As i understand, a laser (what are its characteristics?) is fired at Tin droplets in a vaccuum chamber causing it to emit light in "Extreme UV" wavelength range which is then focused using a set of Zeiss mirr…

Diffraction sets a limit on how small the features can be patterned using photolith. When the wavelength is larger than the feature size, diffraction causes the light to spread out and blur the edges of what you're trying to pattern. The Rayleigh criterion shows how the ability to separate features depends on the numerical aperture of the system and the wavelength used. The explanation under 'Resolution in projection systems' on the wikipedia for photolithography is a better explanation than what is talked about under the EUV article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photolithography

Going further and further into the UV makes the wavelength smaller and smaller and thus the feature size smaller and smaller. But making light that is controllable in a way for photolithography techniques to work that far into the UV is the difficult part.

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#42

Post by gravescale »

mschuster91 wrote: post #28
phkahler wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> ASML is going to remain a monopoly and whatever Chinese alternative that there may be is going to stay in China. Suppose China develops a cheaper way to produce the EUV light and sells the tools for half what ASML does. They might sell to others just to become the leader.

They might want to sell... but who might (want to) buy, outside of Russia and maybe India? The Western world is already decoupling from China and I think it's completely infeasible that anyone wants to create new ties to China.

Anyone is a stretch, not everyone is so keen to take the US side in the trade war at their own expense. South American and African trade is still pretty brisk and growing as far as I know. Mostly they don't have the possibility of onshoring industries that they didn't have in the first place, as opposed to the West where it's more like attempting to re-shore previously-discarded capability. So they don't really have a horse in the race, they're going to be importing anyway.

"Anyone planning a major semiconductor fab in the 2020s", then quite probably, yes.

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#43

Post by f_devd »

rramadass wrote: post #40

Coincidentally, i have been recently watching/reading a bunch of videos/articles on ASML and their technology. Can some experts/knowledgeable folks here actually explain the technology in ELI5 (and above) terms? As i understand, a laser (what are its characteristics?) is fired at Tin droplets in a vaccuum chamber causing it to emit light in "Extreme UV" wavelength range which is then focused using a set of Zeiss mirr…

Not an expert, but I've always understood it as (LI5):

You may have heard the effect of light is like a wave, higher frequency wave-lengths have a shorter wavelength, which means it can 'reach' smaller features without impacting the rest of the surroundings. Photo-lithography is done through a mask, this effectively means you get a crisper image projected onto the wafer.

If you go too far into/past UV it becomes hard to deal with in terms of heat and optics from my understanding. Which is why we keep getting new $prefix-UV rather than something like X-rays (which are past UV).

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#44

Post by gravescale »

Edd1CC wrote: post #16
gravescale wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's nuts to me is the time scale on the bottom. That is not a lot of time for something so complex. Then again, if they do an Intel 10nm+++++ and fail to maintain velocity even for a couple of years, their competition will close that gap very quickly.

Who are their real competitors? They’ve been buying parts of the supply chain recently - they seem to have a real moat unless regulation gets involved (Serious question: I am just getting into the semiconductor world and haven’t found any competitors yet)

At the top nodes and volumes, indeed there is no competition. They have a huge headstart handed to them basically by Japan screwing it up in the 90s and no one else being able to step (get it?) up quickly before the gap opened.

However, if they can't keep moving, competition that was trailing behind on larger nodes could get close enough that they become competitors for the high end. At first it would be slightly bigger nodes, but cheaper, which might be an acceptable tradeoff, as not everyone in the world is chasing performace over price. CPUs are so gruesomely overpowered these days that it may not really matter that much in many end applications.

Think AMD coming up behind Intel while Intel was thrashing around.

How long the AI hype continues may be important: if AI capabilities are needed in end-user equipment and that requires the real cutting edge processes, ASML/TSMC keep the advantage.

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#46

Post by xeonmc »

rramadass wrote: post #40

Coincidentally, i have been recently watching/reading a bunch of videos/articles on ASML and their technology. Can some experts/knowledgeable folks here actually explain the technology in ELI5 (and above) terms? As i understand, a laser (what are its characteristics?) is fired at Tin droplets in a vaccuum chamber causing it to emit light in "Extreme UV" wavelength range which is then focused using a set of Zeiss mirr…

Visualize the image of a single, perfect point.

The waves emanating from from that point would be spherically symmetrical (think a 360deg "field of view"[0], whereas most lenses are Now, since optical paths are two-way, this also implies that forming a perfect point image requires perfectlu spherically symmetric wavefronts[1] converging to that point, causing all the waves to perfectly cancel out each other everywhere except at the image point.

If you take away a slice of the wavefronts (i.e. block light with an aperture), the cancellations is no longer balanced, producing stray excitations at places that should be silent. (Think of it like squeezing a beer can with your hand causing it to spurt out of the sides)

The large the slice of wavefronts you are missing, the greater the imbalance. The resulting artifact are oscillations on the size order relative to the waves' frequency.

Basically, high NA means trying to capture as complete of the total wavefronts as possible to minimize the imbalance, and short wavelength means trying to keep the size of whatever artifact you do end up getting to be as small as possible.

[0] In air quotes because FOV != NA. The main distinction is that FOV refers to the span of principal directions (i.e. how many points can you see), whereas NA means, given a point object, how complete of its total wavefronts are you capturing it, (i.e. how bright is any given one point)

[1] Up to 2pi phase differential. If your signal is CW then multiples of 2pi is indistinguishable from being in phase, think Shannon Limit. This is why lenses work despite having path differential, because all that's important is that it's back in phase for the given wavelength even if shifted by multiple cycles.

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#47

Post by Edd1CC »

varjag wrote: post #37
sknzl wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lithography/EUV optics comes from Zeiss. The laser for generating the plasma from Trumpf. Both key elements that ASML would not be able to build in-house or get from a different supplier.

There's a lot of expertise with lasers and precision optics around the world.

There’s always these weird bottlenecks in the supply chain though.

My favorite example is during Covid where reduced boron quantities resulted in less Pyrex glass that makes test tubes meaning transporting vaccines was at points rate limited.

I’ve read similar points in the components for lasers to ASML but can’t remember specifics. Chip shortage is the funny one, ASML require more chips that limit their turnaround times which in itself limits chips.

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#48

Post by Dalewyn »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #29
phkahler wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> ASML is going to remain a monopoly and whatever Chinese alternative that there may be is going to stay in China. Suppose China develops a cheaper way to produce the EUV light and sells the tools for half what ASML does. They might sell to others just to become the leader.

Or they might want to keep it under lock and key for a competitive and national security advantage.

There are two schools of philosophy to consider here:

* You keep your secret sauce secret and take over the world with subsequent products.

* You sell your secret sauce to everyone and take over the world becoming the sole source of secret sauce.

So far, China has had resounding success with the latter.

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#49

Post by Dalewyn »

mschuster91 wrote: post #28
phkahler wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> ASML is going to remain a monopoly and whatever Chinese alternative that there may be is going to stay in China. Suppose China develops a cheaper way to produce the EUV light and sells the tools for half what ASML does. They might sell to others just to become the leader.

They might want to sell... but who might (want to) buy, outside of Russia and maybe India? The Western world is already decoupling from China and I think it's completely infeasible that anyone wants to create new ties to China.

Everyone wants to do business with China, because China has money (which we gave them) and everyone wants that money (which will ultimately go back to them with change and interest).

Lest we forget, Japan and South Korea are mulling a free trade agreement[1] with China.

Anyone following US-led sanctions against China are doing so dragging their feet and groaning in annoyance.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Japan%E2%80%93So...

Re: ASML Aims for Hyper-NA EUV, Shrinking Chip Limits

#50

Post by deff »

huppeldepup wrote: post #45

“There are new materials which have a higher mobility for electrons,” [than silicium] Anyone know what these materials are?

Dichalcogenides in a 2D layer like WS2 or MoS2 for example. These can already be grown on silicon wafers but are hard to integrate with other materials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transition_metal_dichalcogenid...

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