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Let's get a little louder

juliaelman.com

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Re: Let's get a little louder

#41

Post by ovi256 »

koide wrote: post #36
yock wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a conference wants to have a policy governing the actions of their attendees whilst at the conference , wonderful. If a conference thinks they have any right to govern the actions of people who happen to be attendees whilst not at the conference , then they can go pound sand. It's sad that this woman was apparently treated so poorly, but there's no possible way for a conference to write a legally-binding code of c…

The policy does not need to be legally binding, just very clear of the consequences, and they can make clear what will happen if they get a complaint about you.

Can I please get your full name and the list of conferences you plan to attend to further your career ?

Don't worry, in no way am I going to abuse this information to make baseless complaints against you. All my complaints will be solidly based on malice.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#42

Post by ovi256 »

Avenger42 wrote: post #17
supernooneo wrote: post #4

Careful that she is making an accusation here, but it is not proven, and prior bad behaviour (that's also an unproven accusation) is not an indicator of present guilt. I don't think we should ban people from conferences based on unproven accusations.

This isn't the stock market. Past behavior is an indicator of present/future behavior. It's not the only indicator, certainly, but when a large number of people are telling you the same thing, then you have a responsibility to discover why that is. The organizer's reaction made it sound like he had reservations about inviting this person, due to older reports similar to the author's.

I'm willing to bet you had bowel control problems until a certain age, and I wonder if I can use that as an indicator of future behavior. There are reliable witnesses, after all.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#43

Post by harryf »

dpeck wrote: post #28

Maybe I'm missing something but why not handle it with the safeguards at the venue? The conference is not in the business of protecting its attendees from unwanted advances, especially outside of the conference areas/sponsored events. Why not speak to the manager of the bar and have him escorted out? If it happens at the hotel, do the same with the hotel manager. People in the service/hospitality industry know how to…

After conference drinks are usually pretty close nit affairs. A group leaves the conference together and arrives at the bar as a group. It's one thing to complain to the bar management that a stranger is harassing you. It's entirely another thing to explain that someone you arrived with is a problem - here you could easily imagine getting the response "your friend, your problem", rightly or wrongly

Re: Let's get a little louder

#44

Post by koide »

ovi256 wrote: post #41
koide wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The policy does not need to be legally binding, just very clear of the consequences, and they can make clear what will happen if they get a complaint about you.

Can I please get your full name and the list of conferences you plan to attend to further your career ? Don't worry, in no way am I going to abuse this information to make baseless complaints against you. All my complaints will be solidly based on malice.

I'll repeat myself to ease your fear of the rabid hordes of malignant women who want to make your life miserable: "they can make clear what will happen if they get a complaint about you."

Of course what will happen from a complaint should take malignancy in consideration and offer at least some kind of right to respond to offenders.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#45

Post by Tichy »

xutopia wrote: post #14

I've gotten into a bar fight to protect a woman I did not know. I almost got into a fight in the subway for the same reason, twice. However I can't stand these kinds of stories. All I hear is one socially awkward guy trying really hard in the worst possible way. I'm conflicted because on the other hand the guy seemed like an asshole but I have only one side of the story and feel like it would be jumping to conclusion…

Wouldn't it be smarter to simply leave, rather than getting into a fight? I actually also heard stories about women getting off about guys fighting over them...

Re: Let's get a little louder

#46

Post by loso »

harryf wrote: post #43
dpeck wrote: post #28

Maybe I'm missing something but why not handle it with the safeguards at the venue? The conference is not in the business of protecting its attendees from unwanted advances, especially outside of the conference areas/sponsored events. Why not speak to the manager of the bar and have him escorted out? If it happens at the hotel, do the same with the hotel manager. People in the service/hospitality industry know how to…

After conference drinks are usually pretty close nit affairs. A group leaves the conference together and arrives at the bar as a group. It's one thing to complain to the bar management that a stranger is harassing you. It's entirely another thing to explain that someone you arrived with is a problem - here you could easily imagine getting the response "your friend, your problem", rightly or wrongly

I used to work club security for a lot of years and it happens all of the time. The people at the bar have seen it before. When the alcohol starts to flow some people can change their whole demeanor and surprise even the people that they are with. So you gently escort them out and if they become too belligerent then you have the police handle it.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#47

Post by saturdaysaint »

stfu wrote: post #10

Somehow I see no causation between a conference and the drunken comments by its attendees at a bar. Trying to argue that a conference organizer should hold some moral responsible for the people attending seems to me just ridiculous. He looked at me and sighed, confessing that he never should have allowed this guy to come to the conference. Here the Wait. What? Really? seems to be better placed - is there somebody rea…

"Somehow I see no causation between a conference and the drunken comments by its attendees at a bar."

So could you just as easily imagine the conversation going down this way if they were coworkers? It still seems possible to me, but also more than a little bit less likely, like better judgement and potential long term repercussions would start popping into this guy's head. "Oh, she'd probably talk to HR and that sounds like a pain in the ass." No "ethical or moral standard" necessary - just the basic discretion that normal people in a social ecosystem usually exhibit.

The reason that these situations seem to be repeatedly playing out at tech conferences aren't hard to deduce, but mostly they just remove the need to have discretion. It's not alcohol or sexuality or immorality - it's an atmosphere with limited institutional memory and inherently short-term social contracts. Conferences are great places for assholes to take cover - you get to be introduced to many people, social capitalize on your work reputation, and sexually "roll the dice" with limited fallout.

Fixing this at conferences isn't a trivial matter of an accuser blowing a whistle once, just as it isn't in the workplace, but neither is a defeatist attitude warranted.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#48

Post by stefantalpalaru »

If the lady says she was harassed we should totally ban the criminal from any future conferences, jobs and parties. Forget the due process, she was disgusted by everyone associated with the rapist. Disgusted! Zero-tolerance means we don't even need Obama to look over the kill-list. The pedophile must pay.

P.S.: at last year's EuroPython conference in Italy we were greeted by a menacing organizer threatening to call the cops if we make inappropriate jokes. I blamed it on the fascist ideology still present in this country, but it seems to run deeper. Let's see how it will escalate this year: https://ep2012.europython.eu/code-of-conduct

Re: Let's get a little louder

#49

Post by davidw »

yock wrote: post #27
davidw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the more reason to have a well thought-out policy in place for how to deal with a potentially explosive situation.

If a conference wants to have a policy governing the actions of their attendees whilst at the conference , wonderful. If a conference thinks they have any right to govern the actions of people who happen to be attendees whilst not at the conference , then they can go pound sand. It's sad that this woman was apparently treated so poorly, but there's no possible way for a conference to write a legally-binding code of c…

The policy governs how the conference will react to situations like this - that's what it's there for, so there are procedures in place when something happens. By thinking it out ahead of time, it helps to avoid mistakes made in the heat of the moment.
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