They're gonna hit an Ohm run with this one.
Electrically conductive bricks can replace fossil fuels in industrial processes
41–50 of 67 posts
Re: Electrically conductive bricks can replace fossil fuels in industrial processes
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe I dont understand. If your primary goal is thermal storage, why do you care about the peak temperature? If we are talking primarily about storage, what are the advantages of a PV field + 1400 C brick storage vs parabolic + 500C storage?
> If your primary goal is thermal storage The goal isn’t thermal storage the goal is to do something that needs extreme temperature. You can’t melt steel at 500C, you can melt it in bricks at 1500C that then cool to 1400C. Use electricity to heat a brick to 1500C and you get 100C worth of energy storage. Use solar thermal to get to 1400C and you get zero energy storage.
I think that is kinda my point. These comments are all in reference to the idea of using these bricks for electrical storage, as an alternative of offset to other technologies like molten salts, batteries, or pumped hydro.
Im skeptical that they would be improvement on other forms of grid power storage.
This is independent of the question if they are good for melting steel.
I guess I dont understand the point you are advocating for.
Re: Electrically conductive bricks can replace fossil fuels in industrial processes
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
It requires full sun to hit steal melting temperatures which is unreliable in many industrial areas. So you need a backup. You can also easily move electrical power long distances but parabolic mirrors are hard to integrate into existing industrial processes and locations. PV electricity is competitive with fossil fuels even if you ultimately just want heat. Solar thermal is far more viable for low grade heat. Especi…
This comment isnt about the industrial processing applications of this technology, but energy storage.
The parent correctly notes that you can't use solar thermal directly for industrial processes because it won't get hot enough and that it's easier to retrofit electric infrastructure than a bunch of mirrors and optics.
Grandparent:
> These are unique it seems because they're durable electric heating elements that can hit industrial process temperatures and might be cheaper then alternatives?
Storage usually makes less sense, but depends on capital cost per kW-hr right? No idea on the economics of that, but an electric heater can get hotter than solar thermal and use much less space at the point of use.
They are durable electric heating elements that can get hotter than solar thermal and hit industrial temperatures without using fossil fuels to heat locally with fire.
Re: Electrically conductive bricks can replace fossil fuels in industrial processes
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
This comment isnt about the industrial processing applications of this technology, but energy storage.
The parent correctly notes that you can't use solar thermal directly for industrial processes because it won't get hot enough and that it's easier to retrofit electric infrastructure than a bunch of mirrors and optics. Grandparent: > These are unique it seems because they're durable electric heating elements that can hit industrial process temperatures and might be cheaper then alternatives? Storage usually makes les…
I understand what they are. I am skeptical that they more economical than other forms of grid power storage.
IF you just want to go electricity>heat>electricity Industrial Arc furnaces can go to 2000 C (and much higher but they have no industrial need).
I would love to be wrong.
Re: Electrically conductive bricks can replace fossil fuels in industrial processes
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
Every material is a conductor in a high enough potential! And if you pass enough current through copper, it can get to the same temperature, provided you're careful enough to maintain contact after it melts. The distinguishing feature to call these "conductive" is that you could make a kiln of these bricks and ordinary bricks, and the current should preferentially pass through the conductive ones. Some of the current…
> And if you pass enough current through copper Yeah, but how do you make a copper wire heat up without also heating up the wiring that leads to that copper wire? You can make it thinner, but these bricks aren't very thin.
Induce a current magnetically and you don’t need a direct wire connection. As for what to put in the intervening space I will leave that as an exercise.
Induction cooktops are ridiculously efficient at heating
Re: Electrically conductive bricks can replace fossil fuels in industrial processes
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
The parent correctly notes that you can't use solar thermal directly for industrial processes because it won't get hot enough and that it's easier to retrofit electric infrastructure than a bunch of mirrors and optics. Grandparent: > These are unique it seems because they're durable electric heating elements that can hit industrial process temperatures and might be cheaper then alternatives? Storage usually makes les…
I understand what they are. I am skeptical that they more economical than other forms of grid power storage. IF you just want to go electricity>heat>electricity Industrial Arc furnaces can go to 2000 C (and much higher but they have no industrial need). I would love to be wrong.
> IF you just want to go electricity>heat>electricity
I think the idea here is to go electricity->heat-storage->heat-usage, using the heat storage to take advantage of cheap renewables that might be otherwise curtailed and to buffer the heat to provide reliability for whatever process it is used for.
Almost any form of energy storage other than heat (i.e. batteries, hydrogen, gravity) would be far more expensive in that use case. By comparison, bricks are an incredibly cheap way to store heat.
If packaged correctly this could also be useful for uses like ovens at industrial bakeries, which have highly predictable energy use patterns.
Re: Electrically conductive bricks can replace fossil fuels in industrial processes
#47I can't say I've ever really thought about using electricity to generate high heats because it's often way less efficient (convert x -> electricity -> heat, vs just chemical(combustion) -> heat) But sure, if you had "free" electricity (wind/solar) that is less of an issue.
I'm wondering if anyone has done the math for a cement plant in the southwest surrounded by PV solar.
Re: Electrically conductive bricks can replace fossil fuels in industrial processes
#48The patent [1] has more details if anyone is interested.
Re: Electrically conductive bricks can replace fossil fuels in industrial processes
#49They're not very conductive if they're getting 1800 degees hot when you pass current through them.
There is a difference between thermal conductivity and electrical conductivity of a material. They have low electric conductivity, so when you try to pass a current through them, they get hot. They are thermally conductive, so the heat spreads around the brick quickly.
Re: Electrically conductive bricks can replace fossil fuels in industrial processes
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And if you pass enough current through copper Yeah, but how do you make a copper wire heat up without also heating up the wiring that leads to that copper wire? You can make it thinner, but these bricks aren't very thin.
Induce a current magnetically and you don’t need a direct wire connection. As for what to put in the intervening space I will leave that as an exercise. Induction cooktops are ridiculously efficient at heating
Nice idea, but for generating that magnetic field you propose to use ... electric current? ;)