Great article. This expresses better than I ever could have at age 20 why I quit my CS degree since I already had a job. At the time, the university was experimenting with a "software engineering" degree, but it was new and not yet accredited so it was too early to know if it was worth it.
Let's Not Call It "Computer Science" If We Really Mean "Computer Programming"
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Re: Let's Not Call It "Computer Science" If We Really Mean "Computer Programming"
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sigh. I keeping seeing all these cs vs programming articles. I'm really waiting for a "fuck just programming, cs is fucking awesome" one, because all the ones I've read so far sound like "haha, stupid math nerds and their cs. just learn to program" (a bit of mis-characterization of this article, maybe, but I get annoyed when people say something I like is "unquestionably" dull)
Maybe its my physics background, but I've always found the problem to be a lack of analogues. We have physics, but we also have mechanical and civil engineering. Likewise we should have a computer science major and a developer major. Just as how mechanical and civil engineers still take some physics and math courses, the developers will take some of the CS courses in addition to specialized courses for their major.
Perhaps this is the thinking behind many of the Software Engineering degrees? They typically focus on requirements gathering, architecture, process, and business integration with less focus on the nitty gritty of sorting algorithms or how compilers work.
Re: Let's Not Call It "Computer Science" If We Really Mean "Computer Programming"
#43It's worth noting that a sharp high schooler can learn to program - many do. It's a rare, rare high schooler that can learn how to use computer science. Most CS grads don't. And we wonder sometimes why our software is so cruddy.
Well, a sharp primary schooler can too... Bah, my first CS teacher claims now that it's crucial to start in primary school if you care about getting anywhere in IOI.
Re: Let's Not Call It "Computer Science" If We Really Mean "Computer Programming"
#44Writing applications: go ahead, program by the seat of your pants. Architect a solution to a big problem: theory comes in very handy.
The theories behind computer science have little very application in large software engineering. software engineering != computer science
The theories behind computer science are used all the time in large software engineering. They're just not the interesting part.
Re: Let's Not Call It "Computer Science" If We Really Mean "Computer Programming"
#45When i was in university majoring in Computer Science i had about 5 programming classes in all 4 years of school while the rest were theory, applied statistics and mathematics. So to call it "computer programming" is a major overstatement to me.
Re: Let's Not Call It "Computer Science" If We Really Mean "Computer Programming"
#46So, I agree with this article in spirit. Lots of programmers could've benefitted from a more programming centric approach rather than a CS approach. However, this bit gave me pause. " I cannot tell the difference by watching them develop software." I can't disagree with this more. While this may be true of students who were middle of the road students in CS programs. I can't definitely tell the difference between peo…
I'm curious. In what ways do they attack problems differently?
I can't talk for the parent, but one significant way I expect people with formal training and people without it to differ is in how the knowledge of data structures and algorithms affects their work.
If you stumble upon a problem that cries for a trie or a splay tree and you don't know they exist, you'll have a very difficult time solving the problem with adequate performance.
If you are lucky and dedicated and talented you might end up with something similar, but it'll take you a lot longer than one who already knew they were there and how and why to use them. Likewise, if you have been trained in developing algorithms, you know what are the important things and which aren't, and have a toolkit to select ideas from.
Of course, outliers do not invalidate the thesis.
Re: Let's Not Call It "Computer Science" If We Really Mean "Computer Programming"
#47So, I agree with this article in spirit. Lots of programmers could've benefitted from a more programming centric approach rather than a CS approach. However, this bit gave me pause. " I cannot tell the difference by watching them develop software." I can't disagree with this more. While this may be true of students who were middle of the road students in CS programs. I can't definitely tell the difference between peo…
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Re: Let's Not Call It "Computer Science" If We Really Mean "Computer Programming"
#48Here in the UK, when I did my Computer Science degree, about a third to a half was programming. The rest of it was basically hardware and mathematical type theory. There was more but the point is, it covered computing in the whole. How CPU's actually work, how data is organised on a disk, what is actually going in in CAT5 between cards, etc. AI, Databases, servers, etc.
The was another course, CS Software Engineering, or "programming" for the rest of us. They did our programming stuff, and then some. The two courses sort of forked. Programmers did more programming, we did electronics, hardware etc.
Funny thing was, the CS students became better programmers than the CS-SE people did. I think it was because they understood computers, and not just programming. Next odd thing was that the CS guys often become programmers, and the CS-SE guys ended up in support roles. Even when the CS-SE guy were programmers, they worked in herd like environments, where as the CS programmers ended up on some very interesting projects, like avionics.
Later on, when I did some support roles, I found that the programmers knew less about computers than secretaries. Web designers/coders were worse.
Not saying this is any sort of trend, and I did do my degree 15 odd years ago. But I found it interesting.
Re: Let's Not Call It "Computer Science" If We Really Mean "Computer Programming"
#49[deleted]
Re: Let's Not Call It "Computer Science" If We Really Mean "Computer Programming"
#50"Of all the mathematical sciences, computer science is unquestionably the dullest." Really? I find it the most interesting. Which is, I think, what led me here.
Sigh. I keeping seeing all these cs vs programming articles. I'm really waiting for a "fuck just programming, cs is fucking awesome" one, because all the ones I've read so far sound like "haha, stupid math nerds and their cs. just learn to program" (a bit of mis-characterization of this article, maybe, but I get annoyed when people say something I like is "unquestionably" dull)
We used to get those, or at least articles that were like LOOK WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH THIS THEOREM.