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A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

jsomers.net

41–50 of 96 posts

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#41
What a poor reply. Paul Graham's essay can easily be dismissed. Some examples:

1) Graham found philosophy not useful and didn't understand it. This is basically a sample size of 1. Is this a meaningful sample or just a confirmation bias (or suppressed evidence)?

2) Graham believes the early philosophers were encouraged by the progress in maths. But was there really much progress before Euclid's Elements, written around 300 BC, one of the "the most successful and influential textbooks ever written"? Sokrates lived about 150 years earlier (c. 469 BC–399 BC), Plato 50 years earlier (428/427 BC–348/347BC) -- even Aristotle lived earlier (384BC–322BC). One might as well argue that the Greek tradition in philosophy encouraged Euclid to write his elements. The Elements might also have been inspired by Aristotle's logic. But that was obviously useless, according to Graham.

3) In hindsight, it's easy to say what's, for instance, the shortest way out of a labyrinth. But one needs to go many false routes to find out. Are these useless, then? Graham obviously thinks he could spot the shortest way out, by studying "useful" goals. But who really knows? It's easy to say: "I know what's the shortest way" but most people fail when put to a test. Even Wittgenstein was first "wrong" and wrote a rather abstract -- and Graham would probably say: useless -- treatment called "Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus" before he was able to articulate his critic of language. Sometimes you need a ladder before you can throw it away.

4) Graham also forgets that philosophic thinking inspired or formed many other schools of thought: for instance, the study of moral philosophy by Adam Smith marked the beginning of modern economics -- indeed, a useless art --, the study of natural philosophy and that of Malthus' work (an economist and demographer) lead to the discovery of "natural selection" by Darwin -- truly useless, I guess -- , the study of the philosophy of positivism by Comte started modern sociology -- yet another useless art --, theories guiding modern scientific thinking were formulated by philosophers (Popper, etc.) -- obviously useless, too --, even Russel and Whitehead's work was basically inspired by philosophy. And these are just the proverbial tip of the iceberg. Anybody who's a little bit careful can find these examples easily. Graham, however, failed. What does this tell us about his essay?

In summery, what he wants philosophy to do -- namely concentrating on useful stuff -- is already happening, for hundreds of years. It's called science.

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#42
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that Wittgenstein /contributed/ to the advent of modern analytic or formal philosophy; an indisputable claim. While I have a spot in my heart for the Tractatus (if nothing else the method of truth tables in logic was co-invented within its pages, not to mention "whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent"), I'm not defending it and its solipsistic position/obfuscated style per se.

How did his nonsense contribute to other people writing sense? Who was influenced by Wittgenstein then wrote sense?

I have great respect for Wittgenstein, certainly far more than for the myriad of analytical philosophers I read a long time ago who all "wrote sense" (comparatively speaking) and all of whom I've forgotten.

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#43
post #13
post #12

With his essay, I believe jsomers has proven PG's point.

prove it.. :-)

"Problematizing a purely syntagmatic critique of postmodern critical theory"

Plus ten style points for irony. Minus a thousand for writing that sentence at all.

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#44
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese Room argument is wrong. That in itself does not make it useless. It forces you to bite the bullet and really think about how systems must be able to give rise to intelligence, regardless of their physical makeup. The wikipedia article that you linked has this quote: "The sheer volume of the literature that has grown up around it inspired Pat Hayes to quip that the field of cognitive science ought to be re…

The Chinese Room argument is wrong. That in itself does not make it useless. It might be useless, but it's also not optimally useful. That is, I think, a large part of the problem PG points out in his essay.

"If everything you learned in philosophy class was useless, and other classes, in addition to teaching you valuable truths, also used the same “process” as philosophy, then it’d probably be Pareto optimal to jump ship. But I don’t think that’s the case."

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#46
post #17

Asking a philosophical question like "what does X really mean" is akin to asking "what data structure would best represent X in a program?" They could even be considered to be the same question. So philosophy is as central to programming as mathematics.

Maybe, instead, programming is as central to philosophy as mathematics is.

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#47
post #42
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did his nonsense contribute to other people writing sense? Who was influenced by Wittgenstein then wrote sense?

I have great respect for Wittgenstein, certainly far more than for the myriad of analytical philosophers I read a long time ago who all "wrote sense" (comparatively speaking) and all of whom I've forgotten.

That's wonderful. Perhaps you, as a Wittgenstein buff, would be so kind as to explain how the Wittgenstein quote I gave above, which at first glance appears to be nonsense, is in fact respectable and worthwhile thinking? I don't get it; enlighten me.

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#48
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that Wittgenstein /contributed/ to the advent of modern analytic or formal philosophy; an indisputable claim. While I have a spot in my heart for the Tractatus (if nothing else the method of truth tables in logic was co-invented within its pages, not to mention "whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent"), I'm not defending it and its solipsistic position/obfuscated style per se.

How did his nonsense contribute to other people writing sense? Who was influenced by Wittgenstein then wrote sense?

Noam Chomsky

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#49

What a poor reply. Paul Graham's essay can easily be dismissed. Some examples: 1) Graham found philosophy not useful and didn't understand it. This is basically a sample size of 1. Is this a meaningful sample or just a confirmation bias (or suppressed evidence)? 2) Graham believes the early philosophers were encouraged by the progress in maths. But was there really much progress before Euclid's Elements, written arou…

One quibble.

Graham believes the early philosophers were encouraged by the progress in maths. But was there really much progress before Euclid's Elements...?

See http://people.hsc.edu/drjclassics/texts/socrates.shtm:

So how else can we know anything if we can’t use our senses? Well, like many others of his time, Socrates was a Pythagorean, a follower of the pre-Socratic philosopher Pythagoras. Now Pythagoras believed that the entire cosmos worked according to mathematical principles – in other words, that there was a plan, a great cosmic dance orchestrated by a divine intelligence.

So if that's true, then certainly Socrates’ worldview (as presented by Plato) was very Pythagorean, and the Pythagorean worldview was very much founded on the power of math. And you can find Socrates demonstrating math in some of the dialogues.

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#50
post #47
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have great respect for Wittgenstein, certainly far more than for the myriad of analytical philosophers I read a long time ago who all "wrote sense" (comparatively speaking) and all of whom I've forgotten.

That's wonderful. Perhaps you, as a Wittgenstein buff, would be so kind as to explain how the Wittgenstein quote I gave above, which at first glance appears to be nonsense, is in fact respectable and worthwhile thinking? I don't get it; enlighten me.

It's always hard to judge tone online, but yours appears sarcastic and indicative of petty sparring rather than anything I would enjoy.
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