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ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#41

Post by BunsanSpace »

seo-speedwagon wrote: post #31
implements wrote: post #14

During the Falklands War there were discussions in British political circles about what death toll would be unacceptable to liberate 1,800 people from Argentine occupation and rule - a calculus on the value of human life vs geopolitical concerns, I guess. The global consensus seems to be that Israel’s current actions have become excessive - if that’s true, I wonder where the line between legitimate and illegitimate r…

Genuine response: the “wider positions on the nature of the I/P conflict” are essential to informing the situation, and cannot be divorced from the discussion. Israel has no ethical response because there is no ethical means by which one can maintain apartheid. History did not start on Oct 7, 2023. It’s like pondering where the line is between legitimate and illegitimate responses to the Warsaw ghetto uprising, or to…

"History did not start on Oct 7, 2023"

Where should we start?

When the arabs colonized the levant? or the many massacres of native jews? The wars of aggression by arabs? This conflict is awfully messy and each side has a laundry list of legitimate grievances.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#42

Post by tsimionescu »

aen1 wrote: post #35
HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or they are seeking to punish Gazans in general for the actions of a few terrorists on October 7th, eye-for-an-eye style High-ranking Israeli officials have openly stated this at the start of the war and throughout.

"few" https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-p...

Hamas is a complex entity, the ruling party of Gaza as well as a militant terrorist arm. The population of Gaza is around two million people, all of Hamas is maybe 50,000 people, terrorist arm is some subset of that, and the people who actually participated in the Oct 7 atrocities are maybe a few thousand counting all support personnel. I think that easily qualifies as a few people compared to two million.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#44

Post by nolongerthere »

seo-speedwagon wrote: post #32
HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or they are seeking to punish Gazans in general for the actions of a few terrorists on October 7th, eye-for-an-eye style High-ranking Israeli officials have openly stated this at the start of the war and throughout.

Israel’s minister of national security has explicitly said he wants to ethnically cleanse Gaza. https://x.com/NTarnopolsky/status/1792891809498022385

Do you speak hebrew? I don't see subtitles to that video, where do you get that?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#46

Post by linearrust »

dragonwriter wrote: post #21
mbonnet wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because the reality is, some nations have nuclear weapons and colossal economic power, and some don't.

India has nuclear weapons and more economic power than the UK. And yet the UK has a veto, and India does not. Also, only one of the P5 powers had nuclear weapons when the UN Charter was signed.

The UN was created when india was a subservient colony of britain. When veto powers were being given out, india didn't exist as an independent country. That's why the UK has veto power while india doesn't.

There definitely needs to be a rebalancing of power within the UN but none of the P5 want their power diluted. And they have the all powerful veto power.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#47

Post by ryandrake »

HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #28
implements wrote: post #14

During the Falklands War there were discussions in British political circles about what death toll would be unacceptable to liberate 1,800 people from Argentine occupation and rule - a calculus on the value of human life vs geopolitical concerns, I guess. The global consensus seems to be that Israel’s current actions have become excessive - if that’s true, I wonder where the line between legitimate and illegitimate r…

During the Falklands War the discussion was around military deaths, not civilian deaths. The problem people have with Israel is not that they're killing Hamas fighters or that IDF soldiers are being killed. It's that they're killing civilians (amongst other war crimes and crimes against humanity). It's a completely different situation. Edit: just to flesh out my position here a bit. Civilian deaths are unavoidable in…

> The problem people have with Israel is not that they're killing Hamas fighters or that IDF soldiers are being killed. It's that they're killing civilians (amongst other war crimes and crimes against humanity).

There is also a deliberate propaganda effort to blur the distinction between Hamas and Palestinians. Look at every conservative news source that reports on pro-Palestinian protests. Every one of them uses the term "Pro-Hamas protestors" instead, even though you'll find very few people there who support Hamas terrorists. This is clearly deliberate.

See also the deliberate conflation of IDF = Israeli government = Israeli people = the Jewish Ethnicity = Judaism. So, thanks to propaganda, if you oppose one of them, they think you oppose them all and are antisemitic.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#49

Post by runarberg »

bluish29 wrote: post #8
mmastrac wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just how things work. The League of Nations failed largely because it lacked the participation and support of major powers. The United States, despite being a principal architect of the League, never joined [1]. This lack of participation undermined the its legitimacy and effectiveness. The veto power was established at the founding of the UN in 1945 as a reflection of the state of the world following World War…

You are contradicting yourself. If the world power participation in UN is vital to its role but at the same time nothing outside the conflicted power between them then why do you think UN is more than a club of world power extended to include some people from thr outside? And what actually prevented a global conflict after the world war II is not the UN succeeding into what League of nations, it is nuclear war and MA…

> And what actually prevented a global conflict after the world war II is not the UN succeeding into what League of nations, it is nuclear war and MAD doctrine.

This is wishful thinking and a history revisionism. Mathematically speaking MAD will always result in a nuclear Armageddon. People knew that and worked with the UN to prevent proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and escalation of the Nuclear Arms buildup. Without the UN it is hard to see something like the Comprehensive Test Ban treaty or the Non-Proliferation Treaty striking balance to the Nuclear Arms race and preventing a nuclear Armageddon.

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