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Tegelwippen

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Re: Tegelwippen

#41

Post by microtonal »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #32
microtonal wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its like german but with english syntax I don't want to be too pedantic, but it's not. Dutch syntax is very similar to German, both are typically analyzed as an SOV (subject-object-verb) language with movement of the finite verb to the V2 position in declarative main clauses, unlike English. Word order of Dutch and German clauses (+ some other Germanic languages) are typically described in terms of topological fields…

I'm Dutch, I live in Germany. The language and grammar are different enough that I struggle with German. Dutch dialects in the north of the country are very similar across the border. There's also the notion that the Dutch grammar has been changed quite a bit over the years and used to resemble German a lot more. Mostly things are a lot simpler these days than they used to be. Older Dutch texts are hard to read even…

I'm Dutch, I live in Germany. The language and grammar are different enough that I struggle with German.

Well, it's another language... there is always going to be a learning curve, especially beyond a certain age. My wife is German and picked up Dutch pretty quickly. Vice versa, I lived in Germany for five years and even though I barely put in any effort (and we speak Dutch at home), I found German fairly easy to pick up.

There's also the notion that the Dutch grammar has been changed quite a bit over the years and used to resemble German a lot more.

That's certainly true for case marking (with which Dutch often struggle with when speaking German), but again in terms of word order, grammatical gender, etc. they are still very similar and certainly more similar than Engish and Dutch are.

---

English is much easier than German for most Dutch people for various reasons, including: more years of English education (starting during primary education, being mandatory up to VWO 6); subtitled movies; continuous exposure to English through media, internet, etc. The generation of my grandparents were often much better at German than English, they had a lot more exposure to German radio/television, travel was much less international, so they'd usually go to Germany, Belgium, or France when going abroad, etc.

Re: Tegelwippen

#42

Post by johnisgood »

orlp wrote: post #30
cyberlimerence wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting. If you could elaborate, are there linguistical/historical reasons for that ? Does Dutch use more "fine-grained" concepts on average ?

I suspect compound words are a major component of it. In English "car factory" are two words. In Dutch an "autofabriek" is one word. A dictionary might choose to list the most common compound words which quickly adds up.

Same in Hungarian, they are usually written as a single word if the components together create a specific meaning or form a distinct conceptual unit, which is distinct from the individual meanings of the words.

For instance, "autógyár" (car factory) is a compound word made up of "autó" (car) and "gyár" (factory).

I suspect the reasoning is the same for Dutch.

Re: Tegelwippen

#43

Post by lucb1e »

barrenko wrote: post #15
KaiserPro wrote: post #3

For those who aren't gifted with the dutch language (its easy to learn for enlgish speakers. Its like german but with english syntax. logical spelling and grammar thats really not that hard) Anyway, Tegelwippen is where you "flip tiles" and replace them with plants. The basic play is that it reduces flooding, and regulates temperature. Plus its pretty. https://interlace-hub.com/national-dutch-championship-%E2%80... T…

Easier to learn than German?

I (Dutch) found English much much easier to learn than German. Controlling for the amount of benefit I saw and exposure I got to English, probably it's more like "a little easier" but, still, I expect the inverse (English to Dutch) is similar. There's no way that it's harder to learn the language with 2 genders and 2 corresponding words for "the" ("de" and "het") than the language with 16 words for "the" (and the German gender+case stuff also carries over into all adjectives and other word classes, which Dutch mostly doesn't do (the words for "this" and "that" are the only exceptions I can think of)). I'm also pretty sure Dutch has more loan(ed out) words or cognate words.

If you want to go even easier, Afrikaans is like Dutch but with even more English influences and even fewer grammar rules afaik, e.g. no verb conjugations: where in Dutch you say "ik ga, hij gaat, wij gaan" (I go, he goes, we go), in Afrikaans that's something like "ek gaan, hy gaan, wy gaan".

I don't think knowing Afrikaans reasonably would allow you to also reasonably read Dutch though, if that were the goal (let alone German, which is practically unintelligible to someone who speaks perfect Dutch and English if they didn't also have any amount of German training)

Re: Tegelwippen

#44

Post by tgv »

microtonal wrote: post #26
KaiserPro wrote: post #3

For those who aren't gifted with the dutch language (its easy to learn for enlgish speakers. Its like german but with english syntax. logical spelling and grammar thats really not that hard) Anyway, Tegelwippen is where you "flip tiles" and replace them with plants. The basic play is that it reduces flooding, and regulates temperature. Plus its pretty. https://interlace-hub.com/national-dutch-championship-%E2%80... T…

Its like german but with english syntax I don't want to be too pedantic, but it's not. Dutch syntax is very similar to German, both are typically analyzed as an SOV (subject-object-verb) language with movement of the finite verb to the V2 position in declarative main clauses, unlike English. Word order of Dutch and German clauses (+ some other Germanic languages) are typically described in terms of topological fields…

A nitpick, but Dutch nor German is an SOV language. That's a crazy notion that Chomskians had to invent by way of cognitive dissonance reduction.

But Dutch is very similar to German, indeed, and both are also similar to Swedish, Danish and Norwegian.

Re: Tegelwippen

#45

Post by microtonal »

snowpid wrote: post #39
drivingmenuts wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only speak English (and a few foreign fightin' words) and yet, I understood (I think) the meaning of "vorfeld, mittelfeld, and nachfeld" way easier than "the V2 and verb cluster positions". Maybe I should just learn Dutch and dump English?

Vorfeld, Mittelfeld and Nachfeld look more like German.

Yes, these are German words. Much of the early topological field literature was by German linguists, so it's common to use the German words.

Re: Tegelwippen

#46

Post by lucb1e »

cyberlimerence wrote: post #40
orlp wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect compound words are a major component of it. In English "car factory" are two words. In Dutch an "autofabriek" is one word. A dictionary might choose to list the most common compound words which quickly adds up.

In relation to English, sure. But above compares Dutch to German, and they are both Germanic languages, and I think utilize compound words heavily. Looking at sibling comments, maybe those numbers are exaggerated.

It's not like English doesn't have compound words. It's generally "patient data" and not "patients' data" because the words form a compound noun in the same way that "patientendaten" in German and "patientendata" in Dutch form a compound noun.

What's more, English also does togetherwriting. Are "web site" and "website" counted as two words when doing an English word count? Or are words like "web site" simply not included (only "web" and "site" separately)?

(Fun fact: website is webseite in German, where "seite" actually means "page" and not site at all, so you're really saying webpage which, in turn, happens to also exist with a nearly interchangeable meaning in english. I wonder how many circles of meaning there are like that! ChatGPT wasn't able to come up with any, at least not without prompt tweaking or follow-ups)

Re: Tegelwippen

#47

Post by pixelpoet »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #32
microtonal wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its like german but with english syntax I don't want to be too pedantic, but it's not. Dutch syntax is very similar to German, both are typically analyzed as an SOV (subject-object-verb) language with movement of the finite verb to the V2 position in declarative main clauses, unlike English. Word order of Dutch and German clauses (+ some other Germanic languages) are typically described in terms of topological fields…

I'm Dutch, I live in Germany. The language and grammar are different enough that I struggle with German. Dutch dialects in the north of the country are very similar across the border. There's also the notion that the Dutch grammar has been changed quite a bit over the years and used to resemble German a lot more. Mostly things are a lot simpler these days than they used to be. Older Dutch texts are hard to read even…

Half German half Afrikaans, Dutch is easy and it's horrifying how bad native English speakers are at just one language.

Re: Tegelwippen

#48

Post by t0mas88 »

ruuda wrote: post #13

In Utrecht, the municipality will lend you a bakfiets with all the equipment you need (soil, shovel, tile cutter) to replace a few tiles in front of your house with plants. You don't need a permit to do it. https://www.utrecht.nl/wonen-en-leven/parken-en-groen/zelfbe...

Very Dutch, doing it by cargo bike.

Re: Tegelwippen

#49

Post by pixelpoet »

microtonal wrote: post #45
snowpid wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vorfeld, Mittelfeld and Nachfeld look more like German.

Yes, these are German words. Much of the early topological field literature was by German linguists, so it's common to use the German words.

Also see eigenvector etc.

Re: Tegelwippen

#50

Post by lucb1e »

johnisgood wrote: post #42
orlp wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect compound words are a major component of it. In English "car factory" are two words. In Dutch an "autofabriek" is one word. A dictionary might choose to list the most common compound words which quickly adds up.

Same in Hungarian, they are usually written as a single word if the components together create a specific meaning or form a distinct conceptual unit, which is distinct from the individual meanings of the words. For instance, "autógyár" (car factory) is a compound word made up of "autó" (car) and "gyár" (factory). I suspect the reasoning is the same for Dutch.

Do you also have funny misplaced spaces?

Example in Dutch: you can say "losgeld" (literally: loosemoney, money that loosens/releases something; specifically: ransom) but you can also say "los geld" (loose money) which is like spare coins you have in your pocket or so.

In 2020, a supermarket requested that people don't pay with losgeld but by card instead, so they meant to say "please don't pay with cash" but they said "please don't pay with ransom"

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