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The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

jakeseliger.com

41–50 of 72 posts

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#41
post #4

I recommend anyone who is interested in this area read "Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End" by Atul Gawande. Not just for the financial aspects, but an overall deconstruction of the broken end-of-life care system in the country. By making "extend one's life for a few days/weeks by any means necessary" as the gold standard for good medical care, we have lost sight of what healthcare should actually be…

I think a huge part of it isnt even corporatism, but social and cultural avoidance and fear of death. US culture, the only one I claim to speak for, is in denial about death. We hide it away, pretend it wont happen, and then when it does, we lie to the children and try to suppress it ourselves. We drag death out medically, and then have no time to be with the dying. Doing this leads to not only neurotic choices from…

Thanks for sharing that story.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#42
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes... but not at unlimited cost. In a society with limited resources, is keeping one old person alive worth 10 child/years of education? Worth heart surgery for a 50-year-old? Worth basic medical care for a dozen poor families? Yes, the social contract says that we have to care for old people, including medically. It also says we have to educate children, and care for the poor, and provide medical care for everyone…

The tricky part though is everyone will be part of that group unless they die young. So reneging on the social contract with the old means reneging on the social contract with essentially everyone . "Them" being destructive in response doesn't necessarily mean 85 year-olds burning things down, what it means is the 20, 30, and 40 year-olds seeing what's coming and burning things down.

what makes it reneging? People in 1924 didnt have fancy end of life care. People today dont have future technology.

Why cant the social contract be an honest and up front discussion?

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#43
post #39

Keeping anybody alive is worth it. The human species became a civilization only because it kept its then-unproductive weaker members alive - which allowed it to develop learning, technology, and all the things that revolve around them. Even before that, it was able to survive and exist as a physically weaker species by taking care of and keeping alive its sick and wounded. This shows how destructive capitalism is: In…

Capitalism is the engine that has lifted more humans out of poverty than any other. Countries which have embraced that fact have been better places to live than others. Cost/benefit analysis of medical treatment for the terminally ill does not suggest capitalism is "destructive".

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#44
We humans really live for one another, and without other people and especially love, why bother?

Reading the essay I couldn't help but think that there was something missing from the author's calculations, and this quote really brought it home.

We do live for one another, and that brings not only personal benefits like the joy of loving and being loved, but societal benefits: it is part of what binds us together and makes us stronger in groups than we are alone.

The value of many actions is not purely in their direct effects, but also their performative value in demonstrating and reinforcing societal norms. This value is an externality in the calculations of the author. Spending enormous sums to add some small amount of time to a terminally ill person is a manifestation of a societal value for life, generally. When someone's life is in jeopardy, our societal norm is to try to save them if we can, without stopping first to count the cost. It is the same mentality that motivates expensive search-and-rescue operations. We don't abandon people to die at sea or on freezing mountaintops, even at enormous cost and when the person came to peril through their own foolishness. Not without at least trying, anyway.

These norms don't come from nowhere, though. Like all societal norms they must be taught and reinforced through action and demonstration. The author is only able to get away with counting the costs in the way he does because he is talking about his own life. If he wrote the same article about a stranger, it would seem to most people as a ghoulish violation of social norms. (Maybe not to some rationalists, I guess.)

But of course, in some sense he is right, at the aggregate level, we must think of these costs. And so -- in well functioning democracies, at least -- we delegate the aggregate decisions on these things to elected bodies, who make the aggregate decisions like deciding budgets for emergency services or subsidized health care, but not individual decisions about who will be saved.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#46

> The big caveat to saying that I’m not worth keeping alive, though, outside the value the people who love me claim I provide, is that I’m also generating data for clinical trials helps move the state-of-the-art forward. Interesting perspective here. The FDA maintains an open database of clinical trials that is accessible over at https://clinicaltrials.gov and they have an API available as well[0]. A separate group c…

For my part, I've been building an AI agent that watches the daily change feed from clinicaltrials.gov and sends out a personalized newsletter that filters for specific trials and answers specific questions about those matched trials: https://zeeq.ai. Hopefully a useful tool for anyone that is interested in participating in or tracking clinical trials.

Thank you for making it. From what I've seen and experienced, the problem has been "garbage in, garbage out"—that is, there isn't sufficient data posted publicly on clinicaltrials.gov to figure out which trials are best and which are actually open and available. My wife wrote "Please be dying, but not too quickly: a clinical trial story. A three-part, very deep dive into the insanity that is the 'modern' clinical trial system" on using the system, and the actual experience of it: https://bessstillman.substack.com/p/please-be-dying-but-not-...

To figure out what's actually going on, we've had to make a lot of appointments and talk to oncologists to understand what is available and what isn't. The AI companies whose systems we tried missed the better treatments (e.g. BCA-101, or petosemtamab / MCLA-158), although we did not try yours, so perhaps it's capturing material others aren't. "Phone calls and appointments" are how I wound up learning about Seagen / Pfizer's antibody drug conjugate (ADC) PDL1V: http://jakeseliger.com/2024/04/22/the-emotional-trial-of-cli... (which appears to be working right now, albeit with side effects).

Right now, keeping a true system up to date would require a lot of phone calls, along the lines of VaccinateCA: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-story-of-vaccinateca/, which seems hard.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#47
post #4

I recommend anyone who is interested in this area read "Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End" by Atul Gawande. Not just for the financial aspects, but an overall deconstruction of the broken end-of-life care system in the country. By making "extend one's life for a few days/weeks by any means necessary" as the gold standard for good medical care, we have lost sight of what healthcare should actually be…

I think a huge part of it isnt even corporatism, but social and cultural avoidance and fear of death. US culture, the only one I claim to speak for, is in denial about death. We hide it away, pretend it wont happen, and then when it does, we lie to the children and try to suppress it ourselves. We drag death out medically, and then have no time to be with the dying. Doing this leads to not only neurotic choices from…

I had a very similar experience with my grandfather and his lymphoma.

Bless you and her.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#48

> The big caveat to saying that I’m not worth keeping alive, though, outside the value the people who love me claim I provide, is that I’m also generating data for clinical trials helps move the state-of-the-art forward. Interesting perspective here. The FDA maintains an open database of clinical trials that is accessible over at https://clinicaltrials.gov and they have an API available as well[0]. A separate group c…

For my part, I've been building an AI agent that watches the daily change feed from clinicaltrials.gov and sends out a personalized newsletter that filters for specific trials and answers specific questions about those matched trials: https://zeeq.ai . Hopefully a useful tool for anyone that is interested in participating in or tracking clinical trials. Thank you for making it. From what I've seen and experienced, th…

The current use case for Zeeq AI is really focused on monitoring for new trials or updated trials and not so much for finding trials at the moment.

Your best bet in that case is the AACT database which is pretty accessible if you have a basic knowledge of SQL.

The main gap as you identified is that the trial information in CT.gov is quite sparse and not necessarily deep enough so a true system would need to perhaps also crawl first party sources (e.g sponsor websites) or research papers to find more information.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#49
post #35

I’m so grateful for the author having written and shared this piece. I have similar thoughts - at what point is money to extend my life better applied to others? I don’t know how to decide that, but I know it’s a decision that is being made irrationally.

> at what point is money to extend my life better applied to others?

Depends on who the others are. If it's applied to my children, or other family, or even (possibly) really close friends... sane decisions result.

If on the other hand, it were you mihpdx (I don't believe we've ever met), then the money is always better applied to me. You could drop dead tomorrow, I wouldn't know, and I wouldn't much care if I did somehow find out. Our interests aren't even slightly aligned. Call me a monster if you like. But understand very carefully that most people are like me, even the ones pretending (mostly for social status) that they are the opposite.

> but I know it’s a decision that is being made irrationally.

It's not being made irrationally. Not even slightly. What's happening, is that some really big dorkwads are insisting that my interests (and many other people's) are different than they are. So when we act in ways that rationally move us towards our goals, these people start screeching that we're irrational. Or that "acting against our own interests".

Our collective actions are just some hodgepodge mixture of people acting and counter-acting against each other.

Re: The financial costs of healthcare costs, or, is keeping me alive worth it?

#50
post #39

Keeping anybody alive is worth it. The human species became a civilization only because it kept its then-unproductive weaker members alive - which allowed it to develop learning, technology, and all the things that revolve around them. Even before that, it was able to survive and exist as a physically weaker species by taking care of and keeping alive its sick and wounded. This shows how destructive capitalism is: In…

Capitalism is the engine that has lifted more humans out of poverty than any other. Countries which have embraced that fact have been better places to live than others. Cost/benefit analysis of medical treatment for the terminally ill does not suggest capitalism is "destructive".

Ah yes, the engine that brought you a health insurance industry which treats humans as numbers on a spreadsheet. One where people don't seek medical treatment because the threat of being put into financial peril is too big. This really is a better place to live, I guess.
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