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Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#41

Post by neilalexander »

edude03 wrote: post #30
denvrede wrote: post #3

For me personally (I spoke to others and they mostly agree) the biggest downside is that for "public" charging I pay a 100% premium. My costs at home (I live in a rented apartment with no possibility of charging an EV) for 1kw/h are 0.30€. The average price for charging publicly here are 0.59€. Plus the hassle of having a quadrillion providers for which I would have to check first what the cheapest one at a given cha…

I used to have a bmw i3 then a model y while I lived in an apartment building. In my experience although public charging is more expensive the amount you pay overall is cheaper than an equivalent gas vehicle such that it’s probably not worth trying to find the cheapest station more than once. For example to go “500km” in the model y charging at home with the cheapest electricity it’s about $6. At a super charger I pa…

Over 10,000 miles, my EV saves me roughly £1300/year compared to my previous petrol car on the basis of being able to charge the EV overnight at home for £0.09/kW and the petrol costing around £1.40/L before. If I were relying on public charging in the UK, that story would be quite different.

A typical public 7kW AC charger here would start at around £0.45/kWh, at which point the savings would only be £300/year and that is assuming there is somewhere close by that I could leave the car charging for hours at that speed.

If I had to rely on a typical 50kW+ DC charger here in order to get charged up more quickly, that would start at a much higher £0.79/kWh, at which point driving the EV would be £700/year more expensive than the petrol car.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#42

Post by thelastgallon »

EVs are growing everywhere, see Q1 2024 vs Q1 2023[1], slower in EU, compared to other regions. There's a reason for it.

Schmidt said German sales were suffering due to subsidy cuts, and because manufacturers are deliberately holding back sales until 2025, when tougher rules on average CO2 emissions come in: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/apr/23/electric...

[1]https://rhomotion.com/news/q1-2024-over-3-million-electric-v...

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#43

Post by neilalexander »

gary_0 wrote: post #37
denvrede wrote: post #3

For me personally (I spoke to others and they mostly agree) the biggest downside is that for "public" charging I pay a 100% premium. My costs at home (I live in a rented apartment with no possibility of charging an EV) for 1kw/h are 0.30€. The average price for charging publicly here are 0.59€. Plus the hassle of having a quadrillion providers for which I would have to check first what the cheapest one at a given cha…

I don't own an EV so I don't understand... when I go to a gas station, I just tap my debit card and fill up. The price and running total is shown on a display on the pump. Why don't EV charging stations work that way?

In the UK at least, they mostly do. You park up, plug the car in, tap your contactless card and that starts the charge. Once the charge completes (or you unplug the car), the charger works out how much electricity you used and your card gets charged accordingly. In my experience there aren't too many charging points that don't accept contactless payments in this way.

Sometimes having memberships, RFID cards or apps for the different charging networks unlocks cheaper rates though, so contactless payments don't always end up being the most economical in the long run and that can make it harder to compare charging providers, hence why things like Zap-Map and Electroverse were born.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#44

Post by mcntsh »

eigenspace wrote: post #39
Ekaros wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not that expensive even counting depreciation. 30-40€ one way taxi rides get expensive pretty quickly and 40-60€ day rents for car is not that many uses... Plus it really means no walking and waiting for public transport. Ofc, if you love moving stuff inside public transport and ten walking from stops to home the alternatives are great.

It really is that expensive. Car owners routinely underestimate the amount of money their cars cost to own and operate. They are very unreliable narrators when reporting how much their cars cost them. So many costs are hidden, that it feels cheap. Once you account for * the opportunity cost of the up-front money you paid for your car (or the cost of the loan to buy it) compared to investing that money or simply putti…

I have a "car subscription" in Germany, which is kinda like a rental car but for longer periods (mine is 1 year). The subscription covers the cost of registration/taxes/maintenance/insurance and I cover fuel and parking. 580€ a month for a mid-range SUV, or 20€ a day.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#45

Post by RetroTechie »

realusername wrote: post #25
exar0815 wrote: post #8

I won't drive an electric car as long as possible. Not because they are electric or I have any love at all for cumbustion cars, but because I work in the industry. I see what's inside those things, I see what the plans for the next generation are, and they are a cost-cutters wet dream. They are getting even more over-engineered, fully stuffed of useless, cheap, consumer-standard-manufactured gadgets, with software so…

> They are getting even more over-engineered, fully stuffed of useless, cheap, consumer-standard-manufactured gadgets, with software so unbelievabley shit that wouldn't be allowed to run on anything else, design and engineering teams lead by testosteroned morons - and everything targeted on rent-seeking and commodifying for the quick buck. Same for new ICE cars, maybe even worse than electric cars. If you want a reas…

> If you want a reasonable "just-works" minimalist design, you have to buy a used car prior 2010. Anything newer will suffer from those issues.

Afaik both China & India have some EV models that fit this description. (Relatively) simple, and cheap.

But those are either not street-legal in EU or US because 'reasons', or there's import tarifs high enough to undo any cost advantage.

Just replace ICE with electric drivetrain, do the minimum necessary to meet legal & safety requirements, but cut out (most) modern conveniences / luxuries, telemetry, self-driving etc. Then you'd have a winner.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#46

Post by jinushaun »

gary_0 wrote: post #37
denvrede wrote: post #3

For me personally (I spoke to others and they mostly agree) the biggest downside is that for "public" charging I pay a 100% premium. My costs at home (I live in a rented apartment with no possibility of charging an EV) for 1kw/h are 0.30€. The average price for charging publicly here are 0.59€. Plus the hassle of having a quadrillion providers for which I would have to check first what the cheapest one at a given cha…

I don't own an EV so I don't understand... when I go to a gas station, I just tap my debit card and fill up. The price and running total is shown on a display on the pump. Why don't EV charging stations work that way?

Because we live in a post-internet, post-social media, post-smartphone world. Seems like everything new requires me to sign up and pay for a subscription now.

I have no reason to believe gas stations that wouldn’t require an app if they were invented today.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#47

Post by sokoloff »

wcoenen wrote: post #33
denvrede wrote: post #3

For me personally (I spoke to others and they mostly agree) the biggest downside is that for "public" charging I pay a 100% premium. My costs at home (I live in a rented apartment with no possibility of charging an EV) for 1kw/h are 0.30€. The average price for charging publicly here are 0.59€. Plus the hassle of having a quadrillion providers for which I would have to check first what the cheapest one at a given cha…

Perhaps it would make sense if electricity contracts came with a "roaming" option for a certain region. As in, get the same electricity price as at home when using a charging station on the go. After all, I think it shouldn't make much difference to the electricity company whether I use electricity at home or elsewhere, as long as I stay within the region where the company offers the contract. This would also help pe…

I think that double cost is about the right price if you want market operators to offer AC charging. I don’t know exactly what we paid to install 8 Chargepoints at our office (and we offered market-rate electricity, no markup, but I’m also pretty sure we got grants to install the chargers), but it had to be $10K per 2 charging spots (and likely more, as the GW1 itself is $7200).

Making about a break-even return on that upfront expense means making $40 in markup per spot in a typical month. Thats $2 per workday per spot, meaning around a 100% markup on 10kWh of electricity or ~40 miles of range every day every spot.

That seems doable, but doing 80 miles of range every day every spot (to cut the markup in half) does not.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#48

Post by ta1243 »

eigenspace wrote: post #39
Ekaros wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not that expensive even counting depreciation. 30-40€ one way taxi rides get expensive pretty quickly and 40-60€ day rents for car is not that many uses... Plus it really means no walking and waiting for public transport. Ofc, if you love moving stuff inside public transport and ten walking from stops to home the alternatives are great.

It really is that expensive. Car owners routinely underestimate the amount of money their cars cost to own and operate. They are very unreliable narrators when reporting how much their cars cost them. So many costs are hidden, that it feels cheap. Once you account for * the opportunity cost of the up-front money you paid for your car (or the cost of the loan to buy it) compared to investing that money or simply putti…

Only if those are available. €1/km is way more than I pay for car ownership including all those costs, but even if it wasn't it would be economically unsustainable to provide such a service which would always be available

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#49

Post by edude03 »

dartos wrote: post #35
edude03 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to have a bmw i3 then a model y while I lived in an apartment building. In my experience although public charging is more expensive the amount you pay overall is cheaper than an equivalent gas vehicle such that it’s probably not worth trying to find the cheapest station more than once. For example to go “500km” in the model y charging at home with the cheapest electricity it’s about $6. At a super charger I pa…

What’s the weight difference between the SUV and the f150? F150s aren’t known for having the best mileage

Quite a bit (can't find a reliable number, but looks like 300-1000kg and yes, I realize that's a wide range)

The fuel economy is actually quite reasonable unloaded - I'm getting 11L/100km vs 13 on my 370z.

The point I'm trying to make though is that it's probably not worth it to look at saving cents/kw when you're likely to come out ahead either way.

And yes, maybe more to the point of the original article - yes, if you have no car and you're only concerned with the cheapest to operate vehicle I'm confident something like a Prius driven gingerly and only filled up while gas is historically low (over a week window or whatever) you could beat an EV. On the other hand, that doesn't describe most people with cars already so for most people even living in an apartment they'd likely save money.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#50

Post by bonton89 »

realusername wrote: post #25
exar0815 wrote: post #8

I won't drive an electric car as long as possible. Not because they are electric or I have any love at all for cumbustion cars, but because I work in the industry. I see what's inside those things, I see what the plans for the next generation are, and they are a cost-cutters wet dream. They are getting even more over-engineered, fully stuffed of useless, cheap, consumer-standard-manufactured gadgets, with software so…

> They are getting even more over-engineered, fully stuffed of useless, cheap, consumer-standard-manufactured gadgets, with software so unbelievabley shit that wouldn't be allowed to run on anything else, design and engineering teams lead by testosteroned morons - and everything targeted on rent-seeking and commodifying for the quick buck. Same for new ICE cars, maybe even worse than electric cars. If you want a reas…

I can understand his feelings somewhat since it seems electric cars spearheaded this malicious idiocy but rest assured it is already here for ICEs and getting worse. Rejecting electric vehicles might feel like the only way to signal distaste for this behavior if he needs a newer car.
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