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Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

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Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#41

Post by beAbU »

I wonder how this sentiment would change if illegal and asylum seeking immigration ceases to exist.

There's lots of noise in Ireland currently due to "tent cities" popping up in Dublin - there's not enough space to accommodate all the asylum seekers that arrive in the city any more. This clearly has a negative impact on everyone's perception of immigration, and the press readily forgets about the immigrants that entered the country through legal channels and are actively contributing to the economy on a daily basis.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#42

Post by alephnerd »

It's interesting seeing non-immigrants on HN trying to extrapolate immigrant choices as to why they move where they do, and by interesting I mean very reductive and insulting.

I'm the child of immigrants, and my family decided to move to the US over Western Europe or Singapore specifically because the opportunities are greater and Americans are way more open-minded about immigrants mixing their home culture with their adopted culture.

At the end of the day, European countries will have to make the choice about whether they want to remain monoethnic entities (which itself was a result of ethnic cleansing during and after WW2) or whether they are open to a multicultural identity.

There's no point for skilled immigrants to go to Europe if they have the opportunity or pathway to PR or Citizenship in North America as salaries are higher, opportunities are greater, and the population is way less xenophobic (p.s. r/Canada is NOT representative of Canadians - and I lived in parts of BC where the Reform Party was extremely popular back in the day)

Why would a Mexican Engineer want to move to Spain in order to earn peanuts and get called a "Sudaca" when they can earn a higher salary in El Paso or Dallas and still be a couple hours from home.

Ime, the personal ranking of countries for Asian immigrants (South, East, and Southeast) is as follows:

Tier 1 - US, Canada (backdoor to US via TN)

Tier 2 - UK, Australia, NZ, SG, Ireland, HK (before NSL)

Tier 3 - Rest of Western Europe

Tier 4 - East Asia, the Gulf, Malaysia

Most European countries are simply consolation prizes for immigrants. Plenty of people from my region of South Asia worked in the UK and Italy 30-50 years ago, but now prefer Canada and the US instead, or if they're educated staying in India.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#44

Post by alephnerd »

mertbio wrote: post #43

They probably meant that their country takes in too many unskilled immigrants, not highly skilled immigrants like doctors, engineers and so on.

> not highly skilled immigrants like doctors, engineers and so on.

If you have the skills for above as an immigrant, you can command way better salaries in the US and Canada, or stay in your home country.

There's no reason to immigrate to Western Europe except as a consolation prize.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#46

Post by mertbio »

alephnerd wrote: post #44
mertbio wrote: post #43

They probably meant that their country takes in too many unskilled immigrants, not highly skilled immigrants like doctors, engineers and so on.

> not highly skilled immigrants like doctors, engineers and so on. If you have the skills for above as an immigrant, you can command way better salaries in the US and Canada, or stay in your home country. There's no reason to immigrate to Western Europe except as a consolation prize.

Not everything is about money. You have way more security in Western Europe comparing to the US. Also, people don't want to move too far from their families.

Edit: Also I want to add that it is way easier to get a permanent residence and citizenship, for example in Germany than the US. The only problem is just learning German but for that most of the companies support you by paying your language course and so on.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#47

Post by alephnerd »

mertbio wrote: post #46
alephnerd wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not highly skilled immigrants like doctors, engineers and so on. If you have the skills for above as an immigrant, you can command way better salaries in the US and Canada, or stay in your home country. There's no reason to immigrate to Western Europe except as a consolation prize.

Not everything is about money. You have way more security in Western Europe comparing to the US. Also, people don't want to move too far from their families. Edit: Also I want to add that it is way easier to get a permanent residence and citizenship, for example in Germany than the US. The only problem is just learning German but for that most of the companies support you by paying your language course and so on.

> Not everything is about money. You have way more security in Western Europe comparing to the US

It is as a skilled immigrant like my parents.

A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country, so there's no reason to uproot your life unless there is a DRASTIC difference in QoL, because immigrating is expensive. You're looking at $30-50k spent to immigrate.

Germany doesn't provide that drastic enough an economic change compared to the US and Canada, and that's why it's so easy to immigrate to Germany - it isn't as oversubscribed, and those same white collar roles you mentioned end up giving the same if not better benefits in North America via your employer.

For Eastern European or MENA immigrants, Germany makes sense because there is an existing community and it's close to home - not as much for Asians or Central/South Americans.

Furthermore, the xenophobia is real in Germany and across Europe. It's hard to explain to a Gora or Ang Mo, but like you'll never truly become "German" or "French" for a large segment of the population no matter how much you try to assimilate.

> it is way easier to get a permanent residence and citizenship, for example in Germany than the US

Because for a large segment of immigrants (especially from Asia and Central/South America and especially among skilled professionals), Germany and much of Europe simply isn't as attractive a proposition. You end up spending a similar amount immigrating but salaries are much lower and communities aren't as established so it harder to recoup costs

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#48

Post by mertbio »

alephnerd wrote: post #47
mertbio wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everything is about money. You have way more security in Western Europe comparing to the US. Also, people don't want to move too far from their families. Edit: Also I want to add that it is way easier to get a permanent residence and citizenship, for example in Germany than the US. The only problem is just learning German but for that most of the companies support you by paying your language course and so on.

> Not everything is about money. You have way more security in Western Europe comparing to the US It is as a skilled immigrant like my parents. A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country, so there's no reason to uproot your life unless there is a DRASTIC difference in QoL, because immigrating is expensive. You're looking at $30-50k spent to immigrate. Germany doesn't provide that drastic…

> A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country

It is not in Turkey but again, it is not about money. People want to move to Western Europe for multiple reasons. I met with a brain surgeon from South Korea who moved to Germany, because he just wanted to live in the centre of the Europe so he can travel around easily.

I'm also telling people to move to the US if they only care money but that's not their priority.

> You're looking at $30-50k spent to immigrate.

I've never heard such a number. You spend around €2-3K and most of the cases, you get a relocation budget from your employer.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#49

Post by mytailorisrich »

beAbU wrote: post #41

I wonder how this sentiment would change if illegal and asylum seeking immigration ceases to exist. There's lots of noise in Ireland currently due to "tent cities" popping up in Dublin - there's not enough space to accommodate all the asylum seekers that arrive in the city any more. This clearly has a negative impact on everyone's perception of immigration, and the press readily forgets about the immigrants that ente…

I don't think it would change.

Illegal immigration and asylum abuse get the most headlines because that allows the most sensationalist take.

But if you look at the anti-immigration trends in countries like France or the Netherland, or perhaps Germany, they are driven by legal immigration over decades.

I think it's also a mistake to focus on the economy. First because contributing to the economy as a whole does not mean it benefits everyone. For instance, it can keep wages low or lower. Second because when people object to mass immigration they often look at the impact on society and the disappearing local culture and the impact on housing and infrastructure.

The same mistake was made in the UK during the Brexit referendum: the 'remain' side focused on the "economic benefits" of immigration, completely missing the actual concerns of the people.

Re: Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants

#50

Post by alephnerd »

mertbio wrote: post #48
alephnerd wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not everything is about money. You have way more security in Western Europe comparing to the US It is as a skilled immigrant like my parents. A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country, so there's no reason to uproot your life unless there is a DRASTIC difference in QoL, because immigrating is expensive. You're looking at $30-50k spent to immigrate. Germany doesn't provide that drastic…

> A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country It is not in Turkey but again, it is not about money. People want to move to Western Europe for multiple reasons. I met with a brain surgeon from South Korea who moved to Germany, because he just wanted to live in the centre of the Europe so he can travel around easily. I'm also telling people to move to the US if they only care money but that'…

> It is not in Turkey

Hence why I called out Eastern Europe and MENA, though Turks who can afford it do try to target the US instead.

For example, all of Erdogan's kids attended IU Bloomington for undergrad and grad school instead of German programs like LMU or TUM, and the Koç family (the family that controls the Turkish economy) sent most of their kids to Stanford, JHU, and Brown.

> I met with a brain surgeon from South Korea who moved to Germany, because he just wanted to live in the centre of the Europe so he can travel around easily

Ofc, yet the largest Korean diaspora in the West is in America, and the 2nd largest in Canada.

> you get a relocation budget from your employer.

In tech we're lucky we have a market that pays so highly for our skills, but other industries don't pay as much or require a significant amount of retraining, and if you're bringing a family, as plenty of immigrants do, you don't want to live in crummy neighborhood, so you need a lot of money to have a safety net.

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