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How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

leonarddavid.com

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Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#41
post #2

I know it's a blessing for people who live out in the sticks to have internet.... but is that really such a large use-case to justify entire fleets of these things? How hard is it to run km of wire from the nearest town? To me, these were built for the sole purpose of surveillance, and internet is an afterthought. Edit: yes yes it's expensive, but the easiest solution the world came up with was for some guy to invest…

ISPs were paid billions to do this in the US and then stole the money and didn't do it thanks to regulatory capture.

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#42
There certainly is a real concern for astronomers, but the photo illustrations used in the article are selected to make things seem worse than they really are. They're wide field of view, long-duration exposures. That used to be the way astronomers imaged space, with film systems a century ago. But these days astronomical telescopes tend to have much narrower fields of view (like tiny soda straws peering into one particular spot in space) and use image stacking, a technique where many individual images are processed to form the final image (very simplistic overview: https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/astrophotography/astropho... .) Using image stacking and armed with accurate catalogs that predict precisely where every satellite will be at any time, enables the removal of satellites during the image stacking process. Or they can just use that information for better scheduling: wait a minute or two to image a particular spot, so there won't be satellites in the field of view.

The article definitely gets this part right:

> “Some astronomers see this as a true ‘hair on fire’ emergency, heralding irretrievable losses to space science; others present a more sanguine face, depicting this as yet another challenge to be surmounted in surveying a decreasingly pristine sky,” Koplow remarks.

Being involved in both space and astronomy plants me squarely in the latter camp. It takes a bit more work and software, but having so many satellites in space is a surmountable challenge for terrestrial astronomers. (Not to mention, these days some of the best astronomy is performed by telescopes in space, so astronomy overall benefits by having easier access to space.)

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#43
post #28
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That needs some citations. The James Webb Telescope's mirror is 6.5m in diameter. It took decades and billions of dollars of overruns and a prayer to launch and work correctly. There is no hope of most hardware repairs. That mirror size pails in comparison to what can be accomplished via ground based observatories for much, much cheaper. And the available modes of operation are completely different between space and…

> That needs some citations. The James Webb Telescope's mirror is 6.5m in diameter. It took decades and billions of dollars of overruns and a prayer to launch and work correctly. There is no hope of most hardware repairs. Because it had to get launched folded up, because the launch vehicles were so space- and mass-constrained. The unfolding mechanism was enormously complicated and added to much of the cost. Now we ca…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_Large_Telescope

The 39-meter primary mirror has 798 1.4-meter segments, each individually adjustable. The scaffolding required to hold all the segments is "significant" and must be assembled in orbit. We would stick this out next to the James Webb at L2, which means we would need the ability to travel to L2 to construct this mythical orbital extremely large telescope.

With our current technology, we can build ELT on Earth for a fraction of the cost of putting it in orbit.

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#44
I'm sure it's inconvenient, but it's hard for me to believe that this isn't a solvable problem.

Satellites have extremely predictable paths and are very well-tracked by every government with a space program. If you can know a source of noise is there, you can trim the noise out of the signal. Sure, this impacts the fidelity of your signal for the three-dimensional coordinates of image where the noise was present, but "We're getting less science per day" isn't a reason to stop the low-orbit satellite boom.

What am I missing here? Can we not do the signal-subtraction? Is the problem unsolved or unsolvable? And if it's unsolved... Where are the grants to solve it?

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#45

There certainly is a real concern for astronomers, but the photo illustrations used in the article are selected to make things seem worse than they really are. They're wide field of view, long-duration exposures. That used to be the way astronomers imaged space, with film systems a century ago. But these days astronomical telescopes tend to have much narrower fields of view (like tiny soda straws peering into one par…

Forget satellites; you can't do raw long-exposure for "serious" terrestrial-based astronomy anymore because you'll get planes in the way.

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The future of astronomy is both on the ground and in space. There are so many things that you can only conceivably do from the ground. You can build vastly larger telescopes on the ground, you can install far heavier instruments (like cameras and spectrographs) on them, you can upgrade and repair components much more easily. You can build massive arrays of radio telescopes. You get the point. There are some things yo…

Are there really a lot of ground based telescope components larger than Starship's fairing? I'm just not seeing the argument for there being any telescope function that wouldn't be better done in orbit, at Starship payload prices.

I count 13 on wikipedia's list of the largest telescopes. There are 3 more currently under construction. The evocatively named "Extremely Large Telescope" is estimated to cost about $1 billion USD. Who knows how much it will actually cost, but for comparison, that's about $400 million less (adjusted for inflation) than the budgeted cost of the Webb telescope, which is about 1/6 the planned size (and therefore 1/36 the light collecting capability).

edit: italicized above. The Webb ended up costing $10 billion, so the savings could be even larger

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#48

30 years ago, it was possible to be lost - not because you wanted to be, but because you had no way of figuring out where we are. GPS and other GNSS networks have solved that problem. It used to be possible to not have high-speed internet, and now high-speed Internet is available everywhere in the world that has an amenable government. Right now, it's possible to be in a location where it's impossible to call for hel…

Including, notably, better astronomy.

Imagine a radio telescope as a satellite constellation, with an aperture the diameter of the orbit if you can synchronize the incoming signal with the right math...

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#49
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That needs some citations. The James Webb Telescope's mirror is 6.5m in diameter. It took decades and billions of dollars of overruns and a prayer to launch and work correctly. There is no hope of most hardware repairs. Because it had to get launched folded up, because the launch vehicles were so space- and mass-constrained. The unfolding mechanism was enormously complicated and added to much of the cost. Now we ca…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_Large_Telescope The 39-meter primary mirror has 798 1.4-meter segments, each individually adjustable. The scaffolding required to hold all the segments is "significant" and must be assembled in orbit. We would stick this out next to the James Webb at L2, which means we would need the ability to travel to L2 to construct this mythical orbital extremely large telescope. With our…

Why would you assemble it at L2 instead of assembling it in LEO and then sending it out on its own?

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#50
post #37
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That needs some citations. The James Webb Telescope's mirror is 6.5m in diameter. It took decades and billions of dollars of overruns and a prayer to launch and work correctly. There is no hope of most hardware repairs. Because it had to get launched folded up, because the launch vehicles were so space- and mass-constrained. The unfolding mechanism was enormously complicated and added to much of the cost. Now we ca…

Back of the envelope math would suggest that 8-10 JWTs could be launched in a single starship flight making for an impressive telescope array.

Did you factor in the fuel to get to where it needs to be?
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