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The Mirror Fusion Test Facility (2023)

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Re: The Mirror Fusion Test Facility (2023)

#41

Post by pfdietz »

If I understand correctly (and I'm not sure I am), what killed MFTF was they pushed ahead too fast. They didn't find all the instabilities before they started building it.

Since then, the instability that killed it (DCLC) has been understood and they've found a way to design the system to avoid it. So mirrors are being worked on still, they just don't look like MFTF.

https://plasma.physics.swarthmore.edu/brownpapers/WHAMmirror...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/374070078_Physics_b...

https://realtafusion.com/

Re: The Mirror Fusion Test Facility (2023)

#42

Post by [deleted] »

willis936 wrote: post #10

I worked at a fusion lab at UW Madison for a few years. There is a statue of these mirror magnets (with a poetically broken water display). The way MFTF funding cut as soon as it was complete was a generational shock to fusion researchers. The taste still hasn't left peoples' mouths.

[deleted]

Re: The Mirror Fusion Test Facility (2023)

#43

Post by willis936 »

pfdietz wrote: post #41

If I understand correctly (and I'm not sure I am), what killed MFTF was they pushed ahead too fast. They didn't find all the instabilities before they started building it. Since then, the instability that killed it (DCLC) has been understood and they've found a way to design the system to avoid it. So mirrors are being worked on still, they just don't look like MFTF. https://plasma.physics.swarthmore.edu/brownpapers/…

Wouldn't that have come to light within the first few campaigns? It's difficult to justify spending the capital on an experiment that is never run, regardless of how wise it was to make compared to other experiments.

Re: The Mirror Fusion Test Facility (2023)

#44

Post by [deleted] »

actionfromafar wrote: post #33
jethkl wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The engineering hall statue! Thank you for posting your comment. I thought it was an abstract sculpture trying look "engineery". But it's a realistic representation of a cultural wound, and it is a warning. https://engineering.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Kids...

“No deed of honor is commemorated here”

[deleted]

Re: The Mirror Fusion Test Facility (2023)

#45

Post by api »

doubloon wrote: post #20

"we must bring the deficit under control," that's funny because Reaganomics was the beginning of the "deficits dont matter" wing of the Republican party.

It was also the start of politically weaponized Keynesianism. When Republicans are in power they spend massively to stoke the economy while using deficit hawk rhetoric. When they lose power they blame the ensuing deficits on Democrats. Works incredibly well because people don’t look beneath the headlines.

Re: The Mirror Fusion Test Facility (2023)

#46

Post by cycomanic »

api wrote: post #3

This field is so underfunded, but progress is still being made. Check out Commonwealth Fusion and their progress with insanely powerful compact energy efficient magnets. They recently clocked a stable 20T magnetic field.

Calling fusion research underfunded is rich(no pun intended). Costs for ITER are estimated to 45 to 65 billion USD it's one of the most ambitious and costly science projects in the world to date. That's not even accounting for all the other fusion projects.

There are many areas in science that receive significantly less funding.

I would also argue that the prevelant perception that fusion would lead to to essentially unlimited free energy is wrong. The extremely high capital costs would likely mean that fusion is unlikely to ever match solar or wind in energy production costs.

I'm not opposed to fusion/plasma research, we have much insights into nonlinear dynamics and chaotic behaviour due to this research, I disagree with the notion that this is a field that achieves incredible outcomes with small budgets, that's far from reality.

Re: The Mirror Fusion Test Facility (2023)

#48

Post by sbierwagen »

rqtwteye wrote: post #13
SaberTail wrote: post #11

> Only in December of 2022 did scientists at the National Ignition Facility at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory announce that they had achieved the first recorded fusion reaction with a net energy gain We've been achieving fusion reactions with net energy gain since the 1950s, when hydrogen bombs were developed. And, on top of that, the achievement they're talking about was more energy out than light energy…

It’s pretty crazy that they are still working on improving nuclear bombs. If there is one area where the current state is “good enough” it should be that area. I can see the need for maintaining what we have already but why try to advance the technology? A pure fusion bomb would be cleaner as far as I know but do we really want to make nuclear war more feasible?

Pure fusion bombs are very destabilizing, yes. The current nuclear arms control regime depends on uranium enrichment/plutonium production being heavy industry, requiring large facilities with unusual equipment.

A research program for EPFCG pure fusion weapons could be quite small, only requiring a few hundred people and little equipment that couldn't be manufactured indigenously. Test explosions could be done at the kilogram scale, producing no radiation detectable from orbit or seismic effects, then easily scaled to kiloton yields.

Re: The Mirror Fusion Test Facility (2023)

#49

Post by rqtwteye »

doubloon wrote: post #21
rqtwteye wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pretty crazy that they are still working on improving nuclear bombs. If there is one area where the current state is “good enough” it should be that area. I can see the need for maintaining what we have already but why try to advance the technology? A pure fusion bomb would be cleaner as far as I know but do we really want to make nuclear war more feasible?

if we do not maintain expertise in nuclear weapons then we will end up like Ukraine.

We already know everything that’s to know about nuclear weapons if used for defense and deterrence. A pure fusion bomb would be relatively clean so it would be much more tempting to use as a regular weapon. What if Putin had such bombs right now?

Re: The Mirror Fusion Test Facility (2023)

#50

Post by nabla9 »

cycomanic wrote: post #46
api wrote: post #3

This field is so underfunded, but progress is still being made. Check out Commonwealth Fusion and their progress with insanely powerful compact energy efficient magnets. They recently clocked a stable 20T magnetic field.

Calling fusion research underfunded is rich(no pun intended). Costs for ITER are estimated to 45 to 65 billion USD it's one of the most ambitious and costly science projects in the world to date. That's not even accounting for all the other fusion projects. There are many areas in science that receive significantly less funding. I would also argue that the prevelant perception that fusion would lead to to essentially…

Let's read again what you just wrote and think: "ITER are estimated to 45 to 65 billion USD"

That's not the most costly costly project, not even close (prices in current dollars and total costs)

Apollo project: $257 billion

ISS: $150 billion.

STS: $196 billion.

Fusion energy has been constantly underfunded.

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