This all kinda feels like the consumer version of that investor-state dispute settlement clause that they tried to sneak into TTIP that one time.
Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!
41–50 of 99 posts
Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Risky … if it’s automated, they could argue that you’re not actually making a conscious decision and/or not actually doing it yourself, claiming that it doesn’t apply or isn’t an unambiguous indication of your intent to knowingly opt out of whatever the next revision of the arbitration clause may be. It’s far more unclear how that would play out in (US) court than with a manual opt-out once per account per terms of s…
Your are right. I actually should add a new script for a daily mail every time there is any update to the tos page.
One way you could track updates to their ToS is via https://monitoro.co
Disclosure: I work on it.
Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!
#43Me in the EU: and nothing of value was lost (since I literally can’t lose my right to sue them)
When is the USA going to realise that allowing companies to behave like this shouldn’t be allowed?
Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!
#44Interesting. Does this forced arbitration also apply to EU?
This one in particular does not. I'm not sure about the enforceability of other forced arbitration agreements in the EU. > To protect our users outside the United States, we’ve decided to modify this clause so that it only affects users in the United States. If you are outside of the United States, this clause does not apply to you https://discord.com/safety/terms-of-service-feedback-and-cha...
That article is from the previous clause added in 2018, if I'm understanding correctly. Does it still apply to the new clause?
Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!
#45I literally can't keep up with every company I do business with. It's impossible so I just give up.
This site has really been fighting things the wrong way. Reading every ToS, installing linux, replacing the firmware on your router, etc won't give you you rights back. It's an impossible battle. The real solution is having the laws updated to enshrine your rights. Years of promoting f-droid and custom android roms did far less for software freedom than the EU telling Apple they need to open up their platform, and te…
from where new laws get inspired?
if it wasn't for people doing their small thing, maybe the EU wouldn't require Apple "opening up"
Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Avoiding a large part of society isn't a practical response. Besides, many may not know of the forced arbitration, despite it negatively impacting them. People are famously bad at these coordination problems.
> Avoiding a large part of society isn't a practical response. In my personal experience, it’s worked out fine. > Besides, many may not know of the forced arbitration, despite it negatively impacting them. People are famously bad at these coordination problems. Not reading the thing you’re agreeing to is not an excuse. Otherwise it’d be an out for any contract. And again, consumers can vote with their feet by only ag…
> In my personal experience, it’s worked out fine.
Okay, but you do realize other people have a different experience of the world, right?
Discord is super-easy to avoid right up until it turns out the only communities for something are on Discord. Or your teacher assigns you work that requires using it. Or your work requires you to use it. Or...
And the thing is, 99% of us will never run into any of those situations! It's easy not to be affected personally, right up until you are
> Not reading the thing you’re agreeing to is not an excuse.
Okay, but I did read the entire TOS at the time - now I'm required to also read every update and respond within a 30 day period. Which, again, easy not to be personally affected right up until you're on vacation in a region with bad internet, or just super-busy with work and you miss that one email
> And again, consumers can vote with their feet by only agreeing to terms that are understandable.
We ban all sorts of contracts - you can't sell yourself into slavery, you can't agree to commit a crime. So what's wrong with voting with our actual vote, instead?
Especially since I'm interested in protecting not just myself, but other people who might not realize how much this potentially disadvantages them.
Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is what we need, yeah. I don't have a problem with binding arbitration if parties with equal leverage agree to it, but it should be flat out illegal to require it as terms of employment or part of ToS.
> … or part of ToS. Let’s forget employment for a sec and just look at a product’s terms. Why can’t you just not use the product? “It’s popular” is hardly an excuse for something new if you’re picking the platform. If it’s an existing community and you feel forced to join a closed system with too many rules for your tastes, skip it. The community will suffer and hopefully they change to something you’ll like. But if…
Voting with your feet only works if your feet have somewhere else to go. Binding arbitration is a cancer that is everywhere and spreading. Your due diligence to choose products that have no binding arbitration are futile, because they can change the game any time. You can opt out, but then they play the arbitration do-over card like Discord is doing here and nullify that unless you opt out again. You can’t win.
Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!
#48As a consumer, I’m not sure I understand the disdain for forced arbitration. I understand discord desires it because it helps prevent rulings becoming case law. But I am going through forced arbitration right now in a personal lawsuit, and part of it is bleeding to a third party that does not arbitrate, which means real court. By all accounts I have been assured by my lawyer we are in a better position pursuing arbit…
Companies mostly want it because it's a lot cheaper to do discovery in an arbitration, actually. Some kind of unfavorable precedent is extreme tail risk because no matter what you're almost certainly going to settle, that isn't really a factor in legal department decisions. But real civil discovery is an extremely lengthy and expensive process.
Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!
#49Me in the EU: and nothing of value was lost (since I literally can’t lose my right to sue them) When is the USA going to realise that allowing companies to behave like this shouldn’t be allowed?
Many of us have realized that. It's just a matter of getting it through Congress. As someone upthread noted, bills similar to your EU protections have been introduced in each new Congress in recent years, but they have yet to make it to a President's desk.
Re: Discord Applying Forced Arbitration - opt-out before it is too late!
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
This one in particular does not. I'm not sure about the enforceability of other forced arbitration agreements in the EU. > To protect our users outside the United States, we’ve decided to modify this clause so that it only affects users in the United States. If you are outside of the United States, this clause does not apply to you https://discord.com/safety/terms-of-service-feedback-and-cha...
That article is from the previous clause added in 2018, if I'm understanding correctly. Does it still apply to the new clause?
Good question, it does. Here’s the relevant line from their current ToS:
> IF YOU’RE A U.S. RESIDENT, YOU ALSO AGREE TO THE FOLLOWING MANDATORY ARBITRATION PROVISIONS.