Boeing retaliated against its own engineers working for FAA, union says • Hacker News Board

Re: Boeing retaliated against its own engineers working for FAA, union says

#41

Post by paulryanrogers » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:20 PM UTC

huygens6363 wrote: post #25

resource_waste wrote: post #2

Companies are amoral, they literally can't be otherwise. I'm not sure where that puts humans in an effort to defend ourselves. We must be moral, we are judged harshly otherwise. A company uses psychology tricks against its customers(aka Ads/Marketing) making them feel status insecure or a group outsider, totally fine. Actually, those blue bubbles were a great idea, I made sooo much money on stocks. Really feel bad fo…

> Companies are amoral This is a feature, not a bug. We are system creators and let those systems do the work. We dislike getting our hands dirty and not just physically. Companies are thinly veiled machines ran by grinding oiled up humans as cogs in intricate patterns that seem to produce useful results. This is not a problem in and of itself, but we have to be honest about what we are doing and what the true endgam…

> "Powerful” people are just the top cogs in these machines and replaceable like all other cogs.

Maybe on a long enough timescale. In practice people at the top are much harder dislodge regardless of their function, because they wield the most power. Cases like Musk and Altman prove that even boards may be too weak to replace company heads; requiring absurd levels of effort like shareholder votes, legal action, political maneuvering, or all of the above. Worst case one must endure their reign until the CEO dies of old age, not unlike a king.

Re: Boeing retaliated against its own engineers working for FAA, union says

#42

Post by resource_waste » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:24 PM UTC

cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #17

CaptainOfCoit wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless those organic food brands are structured as non-profits, they'll eventually need to make compromises on their value proposition, balanced in a way that shareholders/owners get profits while (hopefully) still provide a net-positive to society. So far, not many for-profit companies have been successful long-term in balancing those two things, as net-positive for society is not strictly necessary for the ultimate…

Citation needed. Do you know what shareholders even are? Are you in such a tech bubble that you can’t comprehend of an organisation delivering surplus value back to shareholders by just…doing something that people want, and charging for it? It sounds like you think that tech startup hypergrowth followed by enshitification is, like, a given, in every situation. It isn’t. MOST businesses don’t work this way. Evidently…

Race to the bottom. At some point it becomes natural resource extraction.

How much do cotton shirts cost now? 1-3$?

Re: Boeing retaliated against its own engineers working for FAA, union says

#43

Post by throwaway4220 » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 2:17 PM UTC

resource_waste wrote: post #39

indymike wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies are amoral, they literally can't be otherwise. If you were to make a Venn diagram of amoral and illegal (including civil malfeasance) have a pretty large overlap. Eventually, the illegal part gets people (even CEOs) sued, fired and/or jailed, but the company might continue if it can afford to pay the legal bills. > These big companies are applauded for being amoral because their stock prices go up. I don'…

>If you were to make a Venn diagram of amoral and illegal (including civil malfeasance) have a pretty large overlap. What is moral about the American Medical Association using Taxes to fund their artificially scarce residency programs which causes consumer prices to go up? Okay, so that one falls outside the venn diagram. With lobbyists writing the laws, I'm really wondering if there is as much overlap as you think.

I keep hearing this idea of artificially restricting residencies like some sort of opec cartel. The fact is no one wants to do primary care there are easy residency spots for family med, peds, internnal med and psych all across the country. 94% of residency spots filled in the country last year (nrmp)

But then again I am a decade out of all that stress of matching so I’m over it.

Re: Boeing retaliated against its own engineers working for FAA, union says

#44

Post by afavour » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 2:27 PM UTC

indymike wrote: post #13

resource_waste wrote: post #2

Companies are amoral, they literally can't be otherwise. I'm not sure where that puts humans in an effort to defend ourselves. We must be moral, we are judged harshly otherwise. A company uses psychology tricks against its customers(aka Ads/Marketing) making them feel status insecure or a group outsider, totally fine. Actually, those blue bubbles were a great idea, I made sooo much money on stocks. Really feel bad fo…

> Companies are amoral, they literally can't be otherwise. If you were to make a Venn diagram of amoral and illegal (including civil malfeasance) have a pretty large overlap. Eventually, the illegal part gets people (even CEOs) sued, fired and/or jailed, but the company might continue if it can afford to pay the legal bills. > These big companies are applauded for being amoral because their stock prices go up. I don'…

> I don't think any investors are applauding the mismanagement at Boeing

Even with everything going on Boeing’s stock price is higher than it was ten years ago. Five years ago it was 4x, I’m sure it’ll recover a good amount from today’s number.

My cynical take is that a lot of investors don’t see what Boeing is doing as mismanagement. They’re in a hugely enviable market position: only one competitor that can’t scale quickly, customers are captive. Boeing management moved to reduce costs (i.e. get rid of expensive unionized workers) while still churning out a large number of planes: success. Some people have died as a result of that, sure, but did you see those profit and loss numbers? Wow-eee.

A year from now Boeing’s stock price will have rallied and they’ll continue on. Maybe an exec or two will take a golden parachute for PR purposes but it won’t mean anything.

Re: Boeing retaliated against its own engineers working for FAA, union says

#45

Post by resource_waste » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 2:29 PM UTC

throwaway4220 wrote: post #43

resource_waste wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you were to make a Venn diagram of amoral and illegal (including civil malfeasance) have a pretty large overlap. What is moral about the American Medical Association using Taxes to fund their artificially scarce residency programs which causes consumer prices to go up? Okay, so that one falls outside the venn diagram. With lobbyists writing the laws, I'm really wondering if there is as much overlap as you think.

I keep hearing this idea of artificially restricting residencies like some sort of opec cartel. The fact is no one wants to do primary care there are easy residency spots for family med, peds, internnal med and psych all across the country. 94% of residency spots filled in the country last year (nrmp) But then again I am a decade out of all that stress of matching so I’m over it.

>I keep hearing this idea of artificially restricting residencies like some sort of opec cartel.

Yes this is real. Look up the ACGME.

Physician wages are non-market and artificial due to limited supply.

If we can import Physicians from other countries, I'll ease up a bit. But the reality is that Physicians are collectively doing immoral things.

Re: Boeing retaliated against its own engineers working for FAA, union says

#46

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 2:33 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #29

indymike wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies are amoral, they literally can't be otherwise. If you were to make a Venn diagram of amoral and illegal (including civil malfeasance) have a pretty large overlap. Eventually, the illegal part gets people (even CEOs) sued, fired and/or jailed, but the company might continue if it can afford to pay the legal bills. > These big companies are applauded for being amoral because their stock prices go up. I don'…

> Society has decided that closing down large employers is a cure worse than the disease. This sort of thinking is exactly why companies like Boeing get a free pass to do whatever it wants. Local govs protect them like the mob because "jobs" and then Congress panics every time they see the market only has 1-2 options for national security stuff and then reinforces monopolies that slowly eat away at the country's comp…

I think there are more options than just "disappearing" the company. Why not break them up into commercial and defense companies? Or even better, tell them: You need to figure out how to break your staff and assets up into four separate, competing companies that all produce airplanes. Go! Probably many other ways to skin the cat, but the US population (proxied through government) is just unwilling to do anything. We treat companies with kid gloves and just let them walk all over us.

Re: Boeing retaliated against its own engineers working for FAA, union says

#47

Post by Urahandystar » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 3:06 PM UTC

swexbe wrote: post #14

resource_waste wrote: post #2

Companies are amoral, they literally can't be otherwise. I'm not sure where that puts humans in an effort to defend ourselves. We must be moral, we are judged harshly otherwise. A company uses psychology tricks against its customers(aka Ads/Marketing) making them feel status insecure or a group outsider, totally fine. Actually, those blue bubbles were a great idea, I made sooo much money on stocks. Really feel bad fo…

It means regulators must work hader to ban this sort of harmful behaviour. In this particular case, Boeing stock is down 40% yoy. I’m sure the next management will think carefully before comitting the same mistakes.

The stock price didn't fall because of how badly they treated their workers it fell because planes started falling out of the sky.

Re: Boeing retaliated against its own engineers working for FAA, union says

#48

Post by totallyhuman » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 3:18 PM UTC

aredox wrote: post #28

For all people worrying about AI "alignment": We already have autonomous entities who are a danger to Humanity. They are called firms. (No wonder that it's a bunch of very ruthless CEOs who seem the most worried by rogue AIs. But the lack of self-reflection - both with them and with the talking heads who invite them on conferences - is flabbergasting to watch)

Robert Miles has an interesting video about this premise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5pUA3LsEaw

Re: Boeing retaliated against its own engineers working for FAA, union says

#49

Post by panick21_ » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 4:43 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #44

indymike wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies are amoral, they literally can't be otherwise. If you were to make a Venn diagram of amoral and illegal (including civil malfeasance) have a pretty large overlap. Eventually, the illegal part gets people (even CEOs) sued, fired and/or jailed, but the company might continue if it can afford to pay the legal bills. > These big companies are applauded for being amoral because their stock prices go up. I don'…

> I don't think any investors are applauding the mismanagement at Boeing Even with everything going on Boeing’s stock price is higher than it was ten years ago. Five years ago it was 4x, I’m sure it’ll recover a good amount from today’s number. My cynical take is that a lot of investors don’t see what Boeing is doing as mismanagement. They’re in a hugely enviable market position: only one competitor that can’t scale…

The investors are simply seeing the reality of the situation.

But they do see the mismanagement and still want it to be better. Sure having a higher stock price is good, but an even higher one would be better.

Re: Boeing retaliated against its own engineers working for FAA, union says

#50

Post by colonwqbang » Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 4:44 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #44

indymike wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies are amoral, they literally can't be otherwise. If you were to make a Venn diagram of amoral and illegal (including civil malfeasance) have a pretty large overlap. Eventually, the illegal part gets people (even CEOs) sued, fired and/or jailed, but the company might continue if it can afford to pay the legal bills. > These big companies are applauded for being amoral because their stock prices go up. I don'…

> I don't think any investors are applauding the mismanagement at Boeing Even with everything going on Boeing’s stock price is higher than it was ten years ago. Five years ago it was 4x, I’m sure it’ll recover a good amount from today’s number. My cynical take is that a lot of investors don’t see what Boeing is doing as mismanagement. They’re in a hugely enviable market position: only one competitor that can’t scale…

I can understand wanting the executives to be held accountable. But why is it important to punish the stock holders of Boeing? Do you feel that they had a hand in these disasters?