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The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

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Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#41

Post by Maken »

doggacula wrote: post #33
actionfromafar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feudal overlords operated under similar constraints as the mafia today. They couldn't be too bothersome, or the peasantry could support a rival.

In a Hollywood movie, sure, with obligatory leading warrior woman role. In real history, not so much. With very rare exceptions (like England [1], and some Eastern European lands were at least some of peasants were militarized) peasantry had little military value [2], and therefore little factor in any rivalry. Also feudalism had more strict rules in regard to competition for resources compared to modern criminals. A…

There was no need for a rival. Peasant revolts were actually quite common and in some cases they succeed in forcing their feudal lords' hands, to some degree [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Remences

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#42

Post by HPsquared »

sparrowInHand wrote: post #16
hellerve wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend visiting the Ecomuseo in Palermo [1] if you ever have the chance. They examine, among other things, the lasting impact of the subpar building of now mostly crumbling structures by the Mafia that still litter the cities of Sicily. Yes, the mafia built housing, but it’s not the kind of social housing we might hope for—it’s mostly slum-like. Of course, the city of Palermo is also EXTREMELY densely populated—…

Unpopular but, the south of italy is a middle eastern country, in all metrics.

More like Greece, I think.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#43

Post by HPsquared »

doggacula wrote: post #33
actionfromafar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feudal overlords operated under similar constraints as the mafia today. They couldn't be too bothersome, or the peasantry could support a rival.

In a Hollywood movie, sure, with obligatory leading warrior woman role. In real history, not so much. With very rare exceptions (like England [1], and some Eastern European lands were at least some of peasants were militarized) peasantry had little military value [2], and therefore little factor in any rivalry. Also feudalism had more strict rules in regard to competition for resources compared to modern criminals. A…

There are so many small ways the common people can express support or disapproval. It's not as simple as "are they currently revolting with pitchforks".

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#44

Post by gpderetta »

samuelec wrote: post #34
xrd wrote: post #28

One of my favorite books is Excellent Cadavers. It's about two Italian judges that systematically root out corruption in Sicily, and pay for it with their lives. It is an incredible history of the path of fascism to the modern day Mafia. And the most interesting thing for me was how connected the Mafia are to the top levels of Italian government. Andreotti was definitely complicit.

Without having to go that far in the past, there are many evidences that Berlusconi had deep connection with mafia. Instead for Andreotti there are no evidence nor proofs, Andreotti was a very intelligent man and if he did or not something nobody was ever able to prove it.

> if he did or not something nobody was ever able to prove it.

The court of cassation disagrees. And he wasn't condemned only because of statute of limitations.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#45

Post by afthonos »

lelanthran wrote: post #15
skrebbel wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first pro-mafia comment I read on HN, and of course it’s in “Well Actually,” Normal Form, and I love it

> This is the first pro-mafia comment I read on HN, and of course it’s in “Well Actually,” Normal Form, and I love it Which part of this appeared to be pro-mafia to you? >> It's not exactly the same, because >> If the mafioso goes too far they lose the support of the locals. >> I mean, sure, the population has no recourse when some henchman rapes some bride, but the organisation's management usually enforce their rul…

Welcome, visitor from the past! In our enlightened times, we understand that one truly opposed to something would not intimate that something is anything less than a baby-eating sect of demons who revel at suffering despite reason and self-interest. Only inveterate supporters, probably in the payroll, would do that.

(Reading on GP, of course, but I did greatly enjoy “Well, Actually, Normal Form.)

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#46

Post by specialist »

samuelec wrote: post #34
xrd wrote: post #28

One of my favorite books is Excellent Cadavers. It's about two Italian judges that systematically root out corruption in Sicily, and pay for it with their lives. It is an incredible history of the path of fascism to the modern day Mafia. And the most interesting thing for me was how connected the Mafia are to the top levels of Italian government. Andreotti was definitely complicit.

Without having to go that far in the past, there are many evidences that Berlusconi had deep connection with mafia. Instead for Andreotti there are no evidence nor proofs, Andreotti was a very intelligent man and if he did or not something nobody was ever able to prove it.

Regarding Berlusconi from a far, I thought "Thank god nothing like that could happen here (USA)."

Ahem.

There are so many obvious parallels between Berlusconi and one of own, I can't fathom why it hasn't been discussed.

(Maybe it has; I mostly tuned out our kayfabe for my mental health.)

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#47

Post by xandrius »

beAbU wrote: post #29
xandrius wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just like you have no idea how mafias operate. Cheap affordable housing from a government is absolutely not the same as cheap affordable housing from a criminal organisation.

No snark intended below: I'm genuinely curious what the difference is according to you. From where I'm standing I sometimes struggle to see the difference between my government and a mafia. They behave in uncanny similar ways.

It is not impossible for a government to act as a mafia (see Russia). But I believe it's impossible for a mafia to be a functional government, they are just built on different grounds.

For me a functional government has the wellbeing of its citizens as a mission. There might be different opinions on how that would look like (hence democracy) but the idea is that; once the government is unchangeable and only cares about maximising the profits of its cadre then it starts becoming more and more like a mafia, just a legalised one.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#48

Post by xrd »

samuelec wrote: post #34
xrd wrote: post #28

One of my favorite books is Excellent Cadavers. It's about two Italian judges that systematically root out corruption in Sicily, and pay for it with their lives. It is an incredible history of the path of fascism to the modern day Mafia. And the most interesting thing for me was how connected the Mafia are to the top levels of Italian government. Andreotti was definitely complicit.

Without having to go that far in the past, there are many evidences that Berlusconi had deep connection with mafia. Instead for Andreotti there are no evidence nor proofs, Andreotti was a very intelligent man and if he did or not something nobody was ever able to prove it.

I'm really interested to hear this. That book makes the assertion otherwise, but I definitely am not an expert. I know very little of Italian politics, honestly, and need to read more about Andreotti given what you said. Thank you.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#49

Post by doggacula »

Maken wrote: post #41
doggacula wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a Hollywood movie, sure, with obligatory leading warrior woman role. In real history, not so much. With very rare exceptions (like England [1], and some Eastern European lands were at least some of peasants were militarized) peasantry had little military value [2], and therefore little factor in any rivalry. Also feudalism had more strict rules in regard to competition for resources compared to modern criminals. A…

There was no need for a rival. Peasant revolts were actually quite common and in some cases they succeed in forcing their feudal lords' hands, to some degree [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Remences

They did happen, of course, but they wasn't common at all if you mark all occurrences on the timeline. And almost all cases were due to catastrophic events such as plaques, and famines exactly as the one you linked, not peasants joining politics. And that's the point as my comment replies to a specific claim, I didn't say peasant rebellions never happened.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#50

Post by doggacula »

HPsquared wrote: post #43
doggacula wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a Hollywood movie, sure, with obligatory leading warrior woman role. In real history, not so much. With very rare exceptions (like England [1], and some Eastern European lands were at least some of peasants were militarized) peasantry had little military value [2], and therefore little factor in any rivalry. Also feudalism had more strict rules in regard to competition for resources compared to modern criminals. A…

There are so many small ways the common people can express support or disapproval. It's not as simple as "are they currently revolting with pitchforks".

Sure. It still doesn't make the claim to which I replied more correct.
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