Live data from Hacker News

EURISKO Lives

blog.funcall.org

41–50 of 102 posts

Re: EURISKO Lives

#41
post #26
post #13

Up until about GPT 2, EURISKO was arguably the most interesting achievement in AI. Back in the day on the SL4 and singularitarian mailing lists, it was spoken of in reverent tones, and I’m sure I remember a much younger Eliezer Yudkowsky cautioning that Doug Lenat should have perceived a non-zero chance of hard takeoff at the moment of its birth. I suspect its achievements were slightly overblown and heavily guided b…

> a much younger Eliezer Yudkowsky cautioning that Doug Lenat should have perceived a non-zero chance of hard takeoff at the moment of its birth Why is Yudkowsky taken seriously? This stuff is comparable to the "LHC micro black holes will destroy Earth" hysteria. There are actual concerns around AI like deep fakes, a deluge of un-filterable spam, mass manipulation via industrial scale propaganda, mass unemployment cr…

> "LHC micro black holes will destroy Earth" hysteria.

I will be heavily downvoted for this, but here is how I remember it:

1) LHC was used to study blackholes and prove things like Hawking radiation

2) LHC was supposed to be safe due to Hawking radiation (that was only an unproven theory at the time)

So the unpopular question: what if Hawking radiation didnt actually exist? Wouldnt there be a risk of us dying? A small risk, but still some risk? (especially as the potential micro black hole would have the same velocity as earth, so it wouldnt fly away somewhere into space)

On a side note: how would EURISCO evaluate this topic?

Since I read about this secretive CYC (why u can email asking for it, but source not hosted anywhere?): couldnt any current statistics based AI be used to feed this CYC program / database with information? Take a dictionary and ask ChatGPT to fill it with information for each word.

Re: EURISKO Lives

#42
post #38
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the combination of the two still seems worth investigating This. Back in the late 1980's and early 90's the debate-du-jour was between deliberative and reactive control systems for robots. I got my Ph.D. for simply saying that the entire debate was based on the false premise that it had to be one or the other, that each approach had its strengths and weaknesses, and that if you just put the two together the whole w…

People have advanced that argument a lot, and it's often worked for a short while; then the statistical models get better. Chess was a game for humans. It was very briefly a game for humans and machines (Kasparov had a go at getting "Advanced Chess" off the ground as a competitive sport), but soon enough having a human in the team made the program worse. But at least the evaluation functions were designed by humans,…

That's the "bitter lesson", right? Which is really a sour lesson- as in sour grapes. See, Rich Sutton's point with his Bitter Lesson is that encoding expert knowledge only improves performance temporarily, which is eventually surpassed by more data and compute.

There are only two problems with this: One, statistical machine learning systems have an extremely limited ability to encode expert knowledge. The language of continuous functions is alien to most humans and it's very difficult to encode one's intuitive, common sense knowledge into a system using that language [1]. That's what I mean when I say "sour grapes". Statistical machine learning folks can't use expert knowledge very well, so they pretend it's not needed.

Two, all the loud successes of statistical machine learning in the last couple of decades are closely tied to minutely specialised neural net architectures: CNNs for image classification, LSTMs for translation, Transformers for language, Difussion models and Ganns for image generation. If that's not encoding knowledge of a domain, what is?

Three, because of course three, despite point number two, performance keeps increasing only as data and compute increases. That's because the minutely specialised architectures in point number two are inefficient as all hell; the result of not having a good way to encode expert knowledge. Statistical machine learning folk make a virtue out of necessity and pretend that only being able to increase performance by increasing resources is some kind of achievement, whereas it's exactly the opposite: it is a clear demonstration that the capabilities of systems are not improving [2]. If capabilities were improving, we should see the number of examples required to train a state-of-the-art system either staying the same, or going down. Well, it ain't.

Of course the neural net [community] will complain that their systems have reached heights never before seen in classical AI, but that's an argument that can only be sustained by the ignorance of the continued progress in all the classical AI subjects such as planning and scheduling, SAT solving, verification, automated theorem proving and so on.

For example, and since planning is high on my priorities these days, see this video where the latest achievements in planning are discussed (from 2017).

https://youtu.be/g3lc8BxTPiU?si=LjoFITSI5sfRFjZI

See particularly around this point where he starts talking about the Rollout IW(1) symbolic planning algorithm that plays Atari from screen pixels with performance comparable to Deep-RL; except it does so online (i.e. no training, just reasoning on the fly):

https://youtu.be/g3lc8BxTPiU?si=33XSM6yK9hOlZJnf&t=1387

Bitter lesson my sweet little ass.

____________

[1] Gotta find where this paper was but none other than Vladimir Vapnik basically demonstrated this by trying the maddest experiment I've ever seen in machine learning: using poetry to improve a vision classifier. It didn't work. He's spent the last 20 years trying to find a good way to encode human knowledge into continuous functions. It doesn't work.

[2] In particular their capability for inductive generalisation which remains absolutely crap.

Re: EURISKO Lives

#43
post #38
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the combination of the two still seems worth investigating This. Back in the late 1980's and early 90's the debate-du-jour was between deliberative and reactive control systems for robots. I got my Ph.D. for simply saying that the entire debate was based on the false premise that it had to be one or the other, that each approach had its strengths and weaknesses, and that if you just put the two together the whole w…

People have advanced that argument a lot, and it's often worked for a short while; then the statistical models get better. Chess was a game for humans. It was very briefly a game for humans and machines (Kasparov had a go at getting "Advanced Chess" off the ground as a competitive sport), but soon enough having a human in the team made the program worse. But at least the evaluation functions were designed by humans,…

I find myself not wanting to agree with you, but deep down I think you're right.

AI greatly reminds me of the Library of Babel thought experiment. If we can imagine a library with every book that can possibly be written in any language, would it contain all human knowledge lost in a sea of noise? Is there merit or value in creating a system that sifts through such a library to attune hidden truths, or are we dooming ourselves to finding meaning in nothingness?

In a certain sense, there's immense value to developing concepts and ideas through intuition and thought. In another sense, a rose by any other name smells just as sweet; if an AI creates a perpetual motion device before a human does, that's not nothing. I don't expect AI to speed past human capability like some people do, but it's certainly displaced a lot of traditional computer-vision and text generation applications.

Re: EURISKO Lives

#44
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have advanced that argument a lot, and it's often worked for a short while; then the statistical models get better. Chess was a game for humans. It was very briefly a game for humans and machines (Kasparov had a go at getting "Advanced Chess" off the ground as a competitive sport), but soon enough having a human in the team made the program worse. But at least the evaluation functions were designed by humans,…

That's the "bitter lesson", right? Which is really a sour lesson- as in sour grapes. See, Rich Sutton's point with his Bitter Lesson is that encoding expert knowledge only improves performance temporarily, which is eventually surpassed by more data and compute. There are only two problems with this: One, statistical machine learning systems have an extremely limited ability to encode expert knowledge. The language of…

>Two, all the loud successes of statistical machine learning in the last couple of decades are closely tied to minutely specialised neural net architectures: CNNs for image classification, LSTMs for translation, Transformers for vision, Difussion models and Ganns for image generation. If that's not encoding knowledge of a domain, what is?

Transformers, Diffusion for Vision, Image generation are really odd examples here. None of those architectures or training processes are tuned for Vision in mind lol. It was what? 3 years after Attention 2017 before the famous Vit paper. CNNs have lost a lot of favor to Vits, LSTMs are not the best performing translators today.

The bitter lesson is that less encoding of "expert" knowledge results in better performance and this has absolutely held up. The "encoding of knowledge" you call these architectures is nowhere near that of the GOFAI kind and even more than that, less biased NN architectures seem to be winning out.

>That's because the minutely specialised architectures in point number two are inefficient as all hell; the result of not having a good way to encode expert knowledge.

Inefficient is a whole lot better than can't even play the game, the story of GOFAI for the last few decades.

>If capabilities were improving, we should see the number of examples required to train a state-of-the-art system either staying the same, or going down. Well, they ain't.

The capabilities of models are certainly increasing. Even your example is blatantly wrong. Do you realize how much more data and compute it would take to train a Vanilla RNN to say GPT-3 level performance?

Re: EURISKO Lives

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the "bitter lesson", right? Which is really a sour lesson- as in sour grapes. See, Rich Sutton's point with his Bitter Lesson is that encoding expert knowledge only improves performance temporarily, which is eventually surpassed by more data and compute. There are only two problems with this: One, statistical machine learning systems have an extremely limited ability to encode expert knowledge. The language of…

>Two, all the loud successes of statistical machine learning in the last couple of decades are closely tied to minutely specialised neural net architectures: CNNs for image classification, LSTMs for translation, Transformers for vision, Difussion models and Ganns for image generation. If that's not encoding knowledge of a domain, what is? Transformers, Diffusion for Vision, Image generation are really odd examples he…

>> Inefficient is a whole lot better than can't even play the game, the story of GOFAI for the last few decades.

See e.g. my link above where GOFAI plays the game (Atari) very well indeed.

Also see Watson winning Jeopardy (a hybrid system, but mainly GOFAI - using frames and Prolog for knowledge extraction, encoding and retrieval).

And Deep Blue beating Kasparov. And MCTS still the SOTA search algo in Go etc.

And EURISCO playing Traveller as above.

And Pluribus playing Poker with expert game-playing knowledge.

And the recent neuro-symbolic DeepMind thingy that solves geometry problems from the maths olympiad.

etc. etc. [Gonna stop editing and adding more as they come to my mind here.]

And that's just playing games. As I say in my comment above planning and scheduling, SAT, constraints, verification, theorem proving- those are still dominated by classical systems and neural nets suck at them. Ask Yan LeCun: "Machine learning sucks". He means it sucks in all the things that classical AI does best and he means he wants to do them with neural nets, and of course he'll fail.

Re: EURISKO Lives

#46
post #41
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a much younger Eliezer Yudkowsky cautioning that Doug Lenat should have perceived a non-zero chance of hard takeoff at the moment of its birth Why is Yudkowsky taken seriously? This stuff is comparable to the "LHC micro black holes will destroy Earth" hysteria. There are actual concerns around AI like deep fakes, a deluge of un-filterable spam, mass manipulation via industrial scale propaganda, mass unemployment cr…

> "LHC micro black holes will destroy Earth" hysteria. I will be heavily downvoted for this, but here is how I remember it: 1) LHC was used to study blackholes and prove things like Hawking radiation 2) LHC was supposed to be safe due to Hawking radiation (that was only an unproven theory at the time) So the unpopular question: what if Hawking radiation didnt actually exist? Wouldnt there be a risk of us dying? A sma…

The fundamental reason that hysteria was silly is that Earth is bombarded by cosmic rays that are far stronger than anything done in the LHC. The reason we built the LHC is so we can do observable repeatable experiments at high energies, not to reach energies never reached on Earth before.

The AI hysteria I'm talking about here is the "foom" hysteria, the idea that a sufficiently powerful model will start self-improving without bound and become some kind of AI super-god. That's about as wild as the LHC will make a black hole that will implode the Earth. There are fundamental reasons to believe it's impossible, such as the question of "where would the information come from to drive that runaway intelligence explosion?"

There are legitimate risks with AI, but not because AI is somehow special and magical. All technologies have risks. If you make a sharper stick, someone will stab someone with it. Someday we may make a stick so sharp it stabs the entire world (cue 50s sci-fi theremin music).

Edit: for example... I would argue that the Internet itself has X-risks. The Internet creates an environment that incentivizes an arms race for attention grabbing, and the most effective strategies usually rely on triggering negative emotions and increasing division. This could run away to the point that it drives, say, civilizational collapse or a global thermonuclear war. Does this mean it would have been right to ban the Internet or require strict licensing to place any new system online?

Re: EURISKO Lives

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Two, all the loud successes of statistical machine learning in the last couple of decades are closely tied to minutely specialised neural net architectures: CNNs for image classification, LSTMs for translation, Transformers for vision, Difussion models and Ganns for image generation. If that's not encoding knowledge of a domain, what is? Transformers, Diffusion for Vision, Image generation are really odd examples he…

>> Inefficient is a whole lot better than can't even play the game, the story of GOFAI for the last few decades. See e.g. my link above where GOFAI plays the game (Atari) very well indeed. Also see Watson winning Jeopardy (a hybrid system, but mainly GOFAI - using frames and Prolog for knowledge extraction, encoding and retrieval). And Deep Blue beating Kasparov. And MCTS still the SOTA search algo in Go etc. And EUR…

That was a figure of speech. I didn't literally mean games (not that GOFAI performs better than NNs in those games anyway). I simply went off your own examples - Vision, Image generation, Translation etc.

>As I say in my comment above planning and scheduling, SAT, constraints, verification, theorem proving- those are still dominated by classical systems

You can use NNs for all these things. It wouldn't make a lot of sense because GOFAI would be perfect and the former would be inefficient but you certainly could which is again more than I can say for GOFAI and the domains you listed.

Re: EURISKO Lives

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Two, all the loud successes of statistical machine learning in the last couple of decades are closely tied to minutely specialised neural net architectures: CNNs for image classification, LSTMs for translation, Transformers for vision, Difussion models and Ganns for image generation. If that's not encoding knowledge of a domain, what is? Transformers, Diffusion for Vision, Image generation are really odd examples he…

>> Inefficient is a whole lot better than can't even play the game, the story of GOFAI for the last few decades. See e.g. my link above where GOFAI plays the game (Atari) very well indeed. Also see Watson winning Jeopardy (a hybrid system, but mainly GOFAI - using frames and Prolog for knowledge extraction, encoding and retrieval). And Deep Blue beating Kasparov. And MCTS still the SOTA search algo in Go etc. And EUR…

Addendum:

>> Do you realize how much more data and compute it would take to train a Vanilla RNN to say GPT-3 level performance?

Oh, good point. And what would GPT-3 do with the typical amount of data used to train an LSTM? Rhetorical.

Re: EURISKO Lives

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Inefficient is a whole lot better than can't even play the game, the story of GOFAI for the last few decades. See e.g. my link above where GOFAI plays the game (Atari) very well indeed. Also see Watson winning Jeopardy (a hybrid system, but mainly GOFAI - using frames and Prolog for knowledge extraction, encoding and retrieval). And Deep Blue beating Kasparov. And MCTS still the SOTA search algo in Go etc. And EUR…

That was a figure of speech. I didn't literally mean games (not that GOFAI performs better than NNs in those games anyway). I simply went off your own examples - Vision, Image generation, Translation etc. >As I say in my comment above planning and scheduling, SAT, constraints, verification, theorem proving- those are still dominated by classical systems You can use NNs for all these things. It wouldn't make a lot of…

I don't understand your comment. Clarify.

As it is, your comment seems to tell me that neural nets are good at neural net things and GOFAI is good at GOFAI things, which is obvious, and is what I'm saying: neural nets can make only very limited use of expert knowledge and so suck in all domains where domain knowledge is abundant and abundantly useful, which are the same domains where GOFAI dominates. GOFAI can make very good use of expert knowledge but is traditionally not as good in domains where only tacit knowledge is available, because we don't understand the domain well enough yet, like in anything to do with pattern recognition, which is the same domains where neural nets dominate. If explicit, expert knowledge was available for those domains, then GOFAI would dominate, and neural nets would fall behind, completely contrary to what Sutton thinks.

So, the bitter lesson is only bitter for those who are not interested in what classical AI systems can do best. For those of us who are, the lesson is sweet indeed: we're making progress, algorithmic progress, progress in understanding, scientific progress, and don't need to burn through thousands of credit to train on server farms to do anything of note. That's even a running joke in my team: hey, do you need any server time? Nah, I'll run the experiment on my laptop over lunch. And then beat the RL algo (PPO) that needs three days training on GPUs. To solve mazes badly.

Re: EURISKO Lives

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the "bitter lesson", right? Which is really a sour lesson- as in sour grapes. See, Rich Sutton's point with his Bitter Lesson is that encoding expert knowledge only improves performance temporarily, which is eventually surpassed by more data and compute. There are only two problems with this: One, statistical machine learning systems have an extremely limited ability to encode expert knowledge. The language of…

>Two, all the loud successes of statistical machine learning in the last couple of decades are closely tied to minutely specialised neural net architectures: CNNs for image classification, LSTMs for translation, Transformers for vision, Difussion models and Ganns for image generation. If that's not encoding knowledge of a domain, what is? Transformers, Diffusion for Vision, Image generation are really odd examples he…

Yeah, all of those architectures are _themselves_ hacks to get around having insufficient compute! They absolutely were encoding inductive biases into the network to get around not being able to train enough, and transformers (handwaving hard enough to levitate, the currently-trainable model family with the least inductive bias) have eaten the world in all domains.

This is evidence _for_ the Bitter Lesson, not against it.

Post reply on HN