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Why everything is becoming a game

gurwinder.blog

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Re: Why everything is becoming a game

#41

Post by Spivak »

Guthur wrote: post #39
jayd16 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone actually run things like that? Where the goal of work is to earn arbitrary points? Sure there are story 'points' for describing complexity in an int and daily check-ins but I thought counting tickets was up there with lines of code produced?

It might be up there but it's all that an overly analytical and literal population can get their heads around. They literally can't think of any other way of making decisions. If they don't stick numbers on things they become essentially blind to it.

Are there other ways? Like sure there's other systems that assign numbers differently and have different ceremonies but is there any way that works that doesn't involve assigning numbers to stuff?

The basic premise of people being simultaneously really good at estimating work and at the same time absolutely garbage at it when you make them use real dates naturally evolves a number system. Make up an arbitrary unit, have people estimate tasks in that arbitrary unit, and behind the scenes without telling them determine the conversion factor for that person so you can plan accordingly. Everything else is just flavor around the core gameplay loop.

Re: Why everything is becoming a game

#42

Post by SunlitCat »

throwaway918274 wrote: post #36

Our CEO was musing about gamifying our scheduling software to get more "engagement" - aka. people accepting more open shifts, aka. working more overtime. It was so disgusting to me I nearly quit over the suggestion.

Just wait, next you have to buy your daily work tasks as a dlc, being at work itself is f2p tho. :)

Re: Why everything is becoming a game

#44

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

_boffin_ wrote: post #34
adrianhon wrote: post #4

Interesting piece! I’m co-creator of Zombies, Run! so I’m glad to see it mentioned here - we designed it to be in the best interests of players, which is why it doesn’t feature streaks or leaderboards or other ways to manipulate you into overexercising or playing more than you want to. That said, I’m more sanguine about gamification than the author. There are indeed many games to choose from, but the ones that are mo…

Question: what / how were the were the discussions on to not include leaderboards, streaks, etc? What what was the primary motivation behind the game? From your comment, it seems play to play rather play to win?

I can’t answer for OP and I hope he does. I can say I’m designing a product at my company and have our team a set of golden rules for it.

Among them is we will respect the user. From being fair on pricing to data collected. If I get a hint of someone not in line with that, they would be off the team, no debate.

We’re lucky that the thing we’re building is not our core business, and it only has to be successful, not MBA-milk-everything-you-can-all-the-time successful.

For me, I have the power to make this a reality. For someone that doesn’t, do what you can.

Re: Why everything is becoming a game

#45

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

justanotherjoe wrote: post #40

this article is all over the place. At one point it even starts admonishing actual video games, with the usual granny complaints. The article sounds like alex jones style of piecing things superficially together. The worship of ted kaczynski is also bothering, since his views are so banal and not even accurate. (technology is making human a creature of society? not really. We always was. Ask jesus what happens when y…

Assassin’s Creed.

Go play the latest ones and tell me that Ubisoft doesn’t have a team devoted to “retention”.

It’s game on top of game on top of game.

The main missions are spaced out in a way that they are not too close or too far apart. The “collectables” (an insult to the word) are spaced between “oh look at that” and “wtf, this region isn’t 100% yet, where the hell is that thing!?”, achievements are an absolute abuse of psychology to keep you playing long after the game stopped being fun, the loading screens, the “quick” travel, the “crafting” and component systems that have you doing the least fun repetitive tasks usually involving the decimation of wild animals.

The grind is out of control.

Seriously, go play Outer Wilds, then play an AC or other grindfest.

The only non-abusive games that are left are indies.

It isn’t Alex Jonesy to rip apart modern video games for their exploitive tactics.

Re: Why everything is becoming a game

#46

Post by justanotherjoe »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #45
justanotherjoe wrote: post #40

this article is all over the place. At one point it even starts admonishing actual video games, with the usual granny complaints. The article sounds like alex jones style of piecing things superficially together. The worship of ted kaczynski is also bothering, since his views are so banal and not even accurate. (technology is making human a creature of society? not really. We always was. Ask jesus what happens when y…

Assassin’s Creed. Go play the latest ones and tell me that Ubisoft doesn’t have a team devoted to “retention”. It’s game on top of game on top of game. The main missions are spaced out in a way that they are not too close or too far apart. The “collectables” (an insult to the word) are spaced between “oh look at that” and “wtf, this region isn’t 100% yet, where the hell is that thing!?”, achievements are an absolute…

I actually think 'playtime' is a great metric for game developers to optimize for. It incentives a lot of good design decisions. But like you said, also incentives a lot of bad ones, especially if your decisions are made by suits, like Ubisoft, who doesn't have any respect or faith in people.

Re: Why everything is becoming a game

#47

Post by ukuina »

actionfromafar wrote: post #24
lupire wrote: post #18

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification has citations for that word and trend as early as 2013.

It was a big thing even before that.

The Xbox 360 with Gamerscore gained through Achievements launched in 2005.

Lilely the first globally-synchronized and overt system designed for gamification.

Re: Why everything is becoming a game

#48

Post by djtango »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #45
justanotherjoe wrote: post #40

this article is all over the place. At one point it even starts admonishing actual video games, with the usual granny complaints. The article sounds like alex jones style of piecing things superficially together. The worship of ted kaczynski is also bothering, since his views are so banal and not even accurate. (technology is making human a creature of society? not really. We always was. Ask jesus what happens when y…

Assassin’s Creed. Go play the latest ones and tell me that Ubisoft doesn’t have a team devoted to “retention”. It’s game on top of game on top of game. The main missions are spaced out in a way that they are not too close or too far apart. The “collectables” (an insult to the word) are spaced between “oh look at that” and “wtf, this region isn’t 100% yet, where the hell is that thing!?”, achievements are an absolute…

On other gaming boards "Ubisoft" has become a catch all phrase for describing when said game has descended into hollow unfun busywork to pad out the game / ensnare players in that hamster wheel.

Most recently FFVII Rebirth's critics have described the game as going "full Ubisoft" which definitely resonates.

I've found that while I am very susceptible to that loop of chasing loot etc a game sticks when it's mechanically fun (YMMV) which is why Monster Hunter and Souls/Elden Ring are my kryptonite. Ditto for Destiny which had quite fun gunplay

Re: Why everything is becoming a game

#49

Post by 082349872349872 »

smackeyacky wrote: post #8
spywaregorilla wrote: post #6

I don't agree with the positive feedback loop being THE thing about games. It's the fact that games offer a sense of progress that life does not. The skinner box implies animalistic pleasure associations that we just want to keep hitting. The progress wanting is simply desiring structure and context to your effort. They're similar but not the same.

I don't think life has no sense of progress. I've been fiddling with motor vehicles on and off over my lifetime (mid fifties now) and progressed from simple tune ups to now re-building engines. It took a long time to get the "feel" of what's right and one outright failure. But I can see the progress I've made over that relatively long space of time in that I understand much better what I'm doing and why, what is OK a…

> If it was a video game the progression would be marked by the prestige of the vehicle but it isn't a game.

ca. 300 BC, Aristippus (returning from a dinner party at the palace) passes a student of Diogenes eating lentils:

— You know, if you'd just learn to say what the King wants to hear, you wouldn't have to eat lentils.

— How about: if you'd just learn to eat lentils, you wouldn't have to say what the King wants to hear?

Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8SVYDvMVzY

EDIT: unfortunately (unlike the Alexander/Diogenes story) there's insufficient overlap for Aristippus/Diogenes to be plausible; added "a student of".

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