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Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#41

Post by dheera »

gorjusborg wrote: post #34

I have bought two Framework 13 laptops, and have been happy with them overall. I love their vision of a repairable laptop, and have replaced parts on them, without issue. That is a great achievement. I have had issues with drivers, and specifically had to reinstall windows to reflash firmware to get a new touch pad to work in linux. Bummer, but I'm also running on the fringe a little, so I accept that. Overall, the e…

My biggest gripe is that for something intended to be DIY upgradable, 2 years later, there is a complete lack of ecosystem and parts for it.

I was hoping for pluggable modules for {IMU, GPS, barometer, geiger counter, air quality sensor, software-defined radio, 5G cellular, RGB LEDs, power-over-ethernet charging, even a small motor module so the laptop can drag itself around on the table}. And what do we get? Some stupid 2nd hand USB-C passthrough and HDMI modules.

Not even a 2-USB-C module that the forums have been asking for ages.

Not even a Dvorak keyboard.

No e-Ink display option. No flush mount bezel option.

No multiple camera options. No depth camera. No LIDAR. No 4K webcam. No low-light StarVis webcam. No stereo cam. No infrared webcam.

No nothing. The ecosystem doesn't even exist.

I was hoping for this to be the Raspberry Pi of laptops with a huge pile of parts on SeeedStudio and AliExpress that you can plug into it.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#42

Post by makeitdouble »

dheera wrote: post #38
qchris wrote: post #12

> Framework will need to step up its game, especially if it wants to sell more laptops to businesses—a lucrative slice of the PC industry that Framework is actively courting. This line really resonated with me. I own a 12th-gen Framework laptop personally, and have enjoyed using it enough that I wanted to have one at work as my existing machine is aging out. Like many businesses, my org requires some paperwork ("tele…

> we're not actively trying to backdoor you What is there to backdoor? Why can't businesses just pay money and get product and not overcomplicate this?

The "not overcomplicate" way is to buy Microsoft, DELL or Lenovo. I'd assume it would need near 0 paperwork for that.

In most companies if you want to buy from a vendor that has no prior business relation you'll need to do the paperwork.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#43

Post by moondev »

Most underrated framework machine is the Chromebook edition. Firmware is solid and loaded up with 2 TB NVME and 64GB DDR. It's x86 with hyper threaded cores and nested virtualization support. Runs android apps, and any distro you want via crostini. Supports docker, KVM (windows and macOS) from crostini. USB passthrough to crostini is super easy via ChromeOS settings panel.

Only thing I really miss is passing a PCI device to crostini like you can do with USB. In dev mode I have seen indications it may be possible but no luck yet. Passing the iGPU or a thunderbolt PCI device to crostini, then to a VM would be so awesome.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#44

Post by dheera »

makeitdouble wrote: post #42
dheera wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we're not actively trying to backdoor you What is there to backdoor? Why can't businesses just pay money and get product and not overcomplicate this?

The "not overcomplicate" way is to buy Microsoft, DELL or Lenovo. I'd assume it would need near 0 paperwork for that. In most companies if you want to buy from a vendor that has no prior business relation you'll need to do the paperwork.

As a former founder and likely future founder, I'd just f it and buy whatever employees need to get their work done.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#45

Post by spott »

dheera wrote: post #38
qchris wrote: post #12

> Framework will need to step up its game, especially if it wants to sell more laptops to businesses—a lucrative slice of the PC industry that Framework is actively courting. This line really resonated with me. I own a 12th-gen Framework laptop personally, and have enjoyed using it enough that I wanted to have one at work as my existing machine is aging out. Like many businesses, my org requires some paperwork ("tele…

> we're not actively trying to backdoor you What is there to backdoor? Why can't businesses just pay money and get product and not overcomplicate this?

Because as companies get bigger they worry more and more about the long tail of risk.

They do this for many reasons, but generally predicting the risk of very low probability events is very difficult, so they don’t understand the risk vs cost tradeoff as well as they think.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#46

Post by numpad0 »

mouse_ wrote: post #2

For a product whose main draw is the ability to have whatever connectors you want, the lack of a plain SD card module (a standard feature on macbooks, so standard in fact that they TRIED to get rid of it and had to backpeddle; an extremely rare move for Apple) destroyed my confidence in this company. I don't trust them.

"Destroyed My Confidence in This Company" sounds too much, but makes me think, is Panasonic Let's note what a car is to a faster horse for Framework customer base?

They have Intel 13th, 16GB onboard RAM, 3x USB-A, 2x TB4, VGA, HDMI, Ethernet, SD slot, 19V barrel jack input, removable battery, etc etc at $1999 starting. That should tick every major boxes that Framework 13 does except price. If by modularity people means SD and VGA and Framework modularity cannot accommodate that, that doesn't count.

Has this all been just a massively roundabout way of finding that out?

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#47

Post by mixmastamyk »

moondev wrote: post #43

Most underrated framework machine is the Chromebook edition. Firmware is solid and loaded up with 2 TB NVME and 64GB DDR. It's x86 with hyper threaded cores and nested virtualization support. Runs android apps, and any distro you want via crostini. Supports docker, KVM (windows and macOS) from crostini. USB passthrough to crostini is super easy via ChromeOS settings panel. Only thing I really miss is passing a PCI de…

I see no reason to submit to google surveillance when the standard framework works well with fedora and mint etc.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#48

Post by pquki4 »

I looked at a number of options when getting a new laptop earlier this year. Although I like the idea of modularized computers and support what Framework is doing, I cannot give them my money, because:

1. They are actually more expensive than something like ThinkPad X13/T14/T14s with the same specs (if you know how to find and use their "coupons"). It is definitely not as modularized (although that will also change in the next generation), but it is hard to justify spending more when you consider build quality and support. 2. There are still reliability issues, like what is mentioned in the article, and things like HDMI not working in certain conditions [0]. I knew that I need better than this.

I used to tinker with Android ROMs/root and different Linux distros a lot back as an undergrad student, but I very quickly realized that, even as a grad student, I need something that is reliable and works, and I need to focus on real productive work instead of figuring out how to fix things. Since then, I only use mainstream laptops/phones with a standard setup as my main devices, although I sometimes have spare/separate devices for trying things out.

[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1biqwdm/laptop_l...

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#49

Post by mixmastamyk »

dheera wrote: post #41
gorjusborg wrote: post #34

I have bought two Framework 13 laptops, and have been happy with them overall. I love their vision of a repairable laptop, and have replaced parts on them, without issue. That is a great achievement. I have had issues with drivers, and specifically had to reinstall windows to reflash firmware to get a new touch pad to work in linux. Bummer, but I'm also running on the fringe a little, so I accept that. Overall, the e…

My biggest gripe is that for something intended to be DIY upgradable, 2 years later, there is a complete lack of ecosystem and parts for it. I was hoping for pluggable modules for {IMU, GPS, barometer, geiger counter, air quality sensor, software-defined radio, 5G cellular, RGB LEDs, power-over-ethernet charging, even a small motor module so the laptop can drag itself around on the table}. And what do we get? Some st…

They need to sell millions before third parties will support them. When they do (and get firmware handled) they’ll be ready quickly.

Re: Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

#50

Post by pquki4 »

dheera wrote: post #44
makeitdouble wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "not overcomplicate" way is to buy Microsoft, DELL or Lenovo. I'd assume it would need near 0 paperwork for that. In most companies if you want to buy from a vendor that has no prior business relation you'll need to do the paperwork.

As a former founder and likely future founder, I'd just f it and buy whatever employees need to get their work done.

It could work very well until there is an employee that intentionally or unintentionally leaks trade secret or customer data, and the police track it down to a laptop without any screening at purchase or any security policy set up by IT (if there is an IT department).
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