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The purge of German science in 1933

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Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#41

Post by crote »

Terr_ wrote: post #7
atleastoptimal wrote: post #4

I wonder just how advanced Germany would be nowadays without the World Wars.

If you mean like jetpacks and robots, it would probably look the same as our current timeline, given that "nowadays" is 70 years later plus the global diffusion of technological progress. Perhaps the real question is how much incrementally-better everywhere would be without old wars.

I'm not convinced it's that simple.

Take a look at the very first Nazi book burning, for example, which targeted Magnus Hirschfeld's Institut für Sexualwissenschaft. It was the leading institution of its kind, and the complete destruction of its archive and community not only set back the LGBT community in Germany (and to a large extent the rest of the Western world) some 30 years - it didn't really recover until at least 1970!

If it can cause that much damage there, imagine what it would've done to the wider scientific community.

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#43

Post by mxkopy »

aftbit wrote: post #22
Terr_ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you mean like jetpacks and robots, it would probably look the same as our current timeline, given that "nowadays" is 70 years later plus the global diffusion of technological progress. Perhaps the real question is how much incrementally-better everywhere would be without old wars.

Or did the wars actually lead to progress? A challenging question. Strife breeds strength, but stability breeds prosperity.

Industrial or technological progress, sure, but at the expense of cultural and societal progress.

Tech trees are straightforward to visualize but I challenge you to think of a law tree or social norm tree as well.

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#44

Post by inglor_cz »

aftbit wrote: post #22
Terr_ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you mean like jetpacks and robots, it would probably look the same as our current timeline, given that "nowadays" is 70 years later plus the global diffusion of technological progress. Perhaps the real question is how much incrementally-better everywhere would be without old wars.

Or did the wars actually lead to progress? A challenging question. Strife breeds strength, but stability breeds prosperity.

I wish could answer that.

On one hand, the fact that a lot of smart people are trying to kill you is a great motivation for rapid technological advance and reduction of red tape.

On the other hand, many of the young men in uniform who were torn apart by shells and mines could have been new Einsteins.

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#45

Post by kromem »

perihelions wrote: post #8

One aspect of this that fascinated me is Nazi Germany's "physics denialism" (?) — the reactionary response to the modern physics revolutions of the early 20th century. (I.e. the twin revolutions of quantum physics and of relativity). It was a much weirder response than simply an attack on physicists who happened to be Jewish humans. Fields of physics were conspiratorially labelled as having a "Jewish" character, and…

You mean things like thinking that the vaccine harms of something nearly the entire world has received which was being said would kill people in two years time is more dangerous than the thing that actually killed millions of people during the last few years?

It would be pretty weird if there were major political parties denying the science like that, or even picking who they would vote for as a leader based on the person agreeing with their magical thinking flying in the face of empirical evidence on that subject.

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#46

Post by jackcosgrove »

Terr_ wrote: post #7
atleastoptimal wrote: post #4

I wonder just how advanced Germany would be nowadays without the World Wars.

If you mean like jetpacks and robots, it would probably look the same as our current timeline, given that "nowadays" is 70 years later plus the global diffusion of technological progress. Perhaps the real question is how much incrementally-better everywhere would be without old wars.

I think the trick is to either get governments to fund basic research for a reason other than national defense, or get them to fund it for that reason but then never use the weapons.

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#47

Post by [deleted] »

xyzelement wrote: post #6

It occurs to me that anti-semitism is a disease that ultimately destroys its host. If Germany "simply" wanted to win WW2, it should have cultivated its Jewish scientists (and by the way, 100K Jewish soldiers served their country in WW1) instead of eradicating them as per this article. Not to mention, diverting scarce wartime resources towards the program of concentration camps and ethnic extermination is not just pur…

[deleted]

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#48

Post by aftbit »

mxkopy wrote: post #43
aftbit wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or did the wars actually lead to progress? A challenging question. Strife breeds strength, but stability breeds prosperity.

Industrial or technological progress, sure, but at the expense of cultural and societal progress. Tech trees are straightforward to visualize but I challenge you to think of a law tree or social norm tree as well.

Perhaps, although perhaps cultural progress as well. For example, perhaps the hippie movement of the 60s was enhanced by the threat of draft in the Vietnam war.

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#50

Post by grujicd »

Terr_ wrote: post #7
atleastoptimal wrote: post #4

I wonder just how advanced Germany would be nowadays without the World Wars.

If you mean like jetpacks and robots, it would probably look the same as our current timeline, given that "nowadays" is 70 years later plus the global diffusion of technological progress. Perhaps the real question is how much incrementally-better everywhere would be without old wars.

You can also wonder what would happen if Gavrilo Princip missed Franc Ferdinand in 1914? Single bullet could completely change world history. Would Austro-Hungary declare war to Serbia over some other cause? Or would some other incident start war between other two countries, leading to the same worldwide havoc? Some say that history is inevitable since it's result of massive forces which are similar to laws of nature. I'm not that sure. Tensions can be defused, diplomacy might work, some other incident could lead to different kind of conflict at different location. What is pretty much sure is that there would still be wars since they seem to be inevitable.

But if that one shot missed, perhaps we wouldn't have WW1, and without WW1 there wouldn't be WW2 as circumstances would be completely different. Was there a single development as small as firing a single bullet that affected world's history this much?

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