Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets • Hacker News Board

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#41

Post by Analemma_ » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 6:22 PM UTC

M4rkJW wrote: post #37

"It’s well known that people are getting news from sources like short-form video, topical newsletters, social media, and curated podcasts, and many are avoiding the news entirely. In line with those trends, just 2% of queries on Google Search are news-related. Nevertheless, we want to continue making targeted contributions to the news ecosystem to help news publishers navigate this inflection point." Google acknowled…

> When will we start seeing white box Surgeon General warnings on Tiktok and Youtube that remind the user prolonged exposure can cause serious mental health issues?

We won't (or if we do they won't accomplish anything), because once you've moved to a low-trust society, which we are rapidly doing, any official statements telling you which information to consume/avoid are seen as Enemy Action and make you trust your outside sources even harder. You can find tons of Zoomers saying they get news from Tiktok specifically because it's not under the control of The Man (even though it's controlled by the Chinese government, the ultimate The Man). There are no easy fixes here.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#42

Post by paxys » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 6:22 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #16

baggy_trough wrote: post #4

A tax on linking is absurd and would be deeply harmful.

Tax on linking = less linking. The whole thing smells like wealth distribution ("hmm, the journalism industry is struggling, but the tech industry is booming. The tech industry interacts with the journalism industry, maybe we can help the journalism industry by mandating a new wealth gradient flowing from one to support the other?")

Laws like these help the top media conglomerates (who are the ones lobbying for them), not the journalism industry at large.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#43

Post by kerkeslager » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 6:23 PM UTC

setgree wrote: post #24

This threat is credible: Google shut off Spain's access to Google News for eight years for similar reasons [0]. [0] https://www.reuters.com/technology/google-news-re-opens-spai...

That sounds like the threat isn't credible because they came back.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#44

Post by CalRobert » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 6:23 PM UTC

flavius29663 wrote: post #38

kemayo wrote: post #6

I agree with Google on this one. Charging a fee just for linking to something is a bad idea. It does get fuzzier if you're also summarizing, and there's clearly some sort of spectrum from "just the URL" to "AI synopsis of the entire article". But at the level we see on Google News (headline + maybe a picture), I don't feel there's any good justification for charging.

> Charging a fee just for linking to something is a bad idea. If you're profiting from it, it's not a bad idea.

If I run a newsletter that links to interesting properties for sale, should I be charged a fee for this?

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#45

Post by paxys » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 6:24 PM UTC

I wonder if these media conglomerates think the same laws should apply to them. If your news article has any linked information in it, you need to pay money to the owner of that link every time your article is opened. Seems only fair.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#46

Post by refulgentis » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 6:24 PM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #6

I agree with Google on this one. Charging a fee just for linking to something is a bad idea. It does get fuzzier if you're also summarizing, and there's clearly some sort of spectrum from "just the URL" to "AI synopsis of the entire article". But at the level we see on Google News (headline + maybe a picture), I don't feel there's any good justification for charging.

I worked at Google until October 2023, the blog post is in bad faith.

This is a good comment that gets at why[1], TL;DR: the hedge fund thing is a complete nonsequitur. The programs are the equivalent of Google Cloud grants, and Google actively disinvested from News[2] just because that was an easy place to get your mandated Sundar cuts for Wall Street.

They're not a good steward of anything other than their stock price.

I don't like the idea of a link tax but I do know, 100%, that blog post is slanted and mealy-mouthed on everything I know first-hand about.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40015572

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/05/technology/google-layoffs...

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#47

Post by paxys » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 6:27 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #43

setgree wrote: post #24

This threat is credible: Google shut off Spain's access to Google News for eight years for similar reasons [0]. [0] https://www.reuters.com/technology/google-news-re-opens-spai...

That sounds like the threat isn't credible because they came back.

They came back after the law was repealed.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#48

Post by jaredwiener » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 6:28 PM UTC

diego_sandoval wrote: post #39

jaredwiener wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea why this is getting downvoted, but would love to hear what people think is wrong.

It's true, journalism is a tough business, but that doesn't justify bending the rules in their favor. Just like Open Source is though: you do all the work, companies make money off of your work without paying a dime 95% of the time, etc. Would that justify a law forcing companies to pay for the open source software they use? No. In the end, people choose to do open source knowing that they're not going to get much mo…

I wasn't advocating for a position -- I also think this law will have unintended negative consequences.

My point is simply that this is more than just linking. It's a full-on parasitic relationship, where Google (and Meta, and others) take the reporting that others are doing and build their own traffic off of that, while draining the people doing the work dry. News orgs are then faced with a terrible choice -- cut off the source of traffic or give it away for free. That's different than a dev deciding to open source a project.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#49

Post by boplicity » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 6:29 PM UTC

diego_sandoval wrote: post #39

jaredwiener wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea why this is getting downvoted, but would love to hear what people think is wrong.

It's true, journalism is a tough business, but that doesn't justify bending the rules in their favor. Just like Open Source is though: you do all the work, companies make money off of your work without paying a dime 95% of the time, etc. Would that justify a law forcing companies to pay for the open source software they use? No. In the end, people choose to do open source knowing that they're not going to get much mo…

> Just like Open Source is though: you do all the work, companies make money off of your work without paying a dime 95% of the time, etc. Would that justify a law forcing companies to pay for the open source software they use? No.

I do think there should be some laws around funding certain open source software that has become critical to the functioning of society -- whether or not that's paid by tax payers in general, or by the companies using that software is a different question though.

Government funded open source strikes me as something that can very much make sense, in certain cases. Some software very much operates at utility scale, and yet, doesn't have a funding model beyond the good will of volunteers. This is dangerous, and also the type of situation that the government exists to solve.

So, yes, companies probably should pay for at least some open source software, maybe indirectly through tax, maybe through some other mechanism.

Re: Google threatens to cut off news after California proposes paying media outlets

#50

Post by jeffbee » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 6:30 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #32

LegitShady wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile in Canada... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/29/google-ca... Although facebook/insta did refuse to be blackmailed, and many canadian news orgs are actually harmed by this sort of bullshit link taxing because their media can't be shared on facebook anymore, where a lot of older news watchers get their news https://about.fb.com/news/2023/06/changes-to-news-availabili...

So essentially Canada gets to subsidize news outlets by having Google pay for them as a yearly subscription. No link tax, just a tax for news. Sounds... reasonable?

Google and Meta had each been funding journalism — actual journalism, not vulture capital clickbait — voluntarily, which they are now not. Google is now paying $100m, most of which goes to huge corporations. Meta pulled out altogether, slashing traffic to canadian media sites by half.