Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

lareviewofbooks.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 71 posts

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#41

Post by pvg »

rdtsc wrote: post #39
gremlinunderway wrote: post #7

Really cool to see other attempts at historically understanding Warsaw Pact and fUSSR tech industries. Every other treatment I've ever seen for describing the Soviet computing and internet development has always just been a lazy "well it wasn't innovative like silicon valley" which, while not necessarily wrong, sounds more like awkward and insecure attempt at justifying our own processes, and also isn't all that desc…

> Every other treatment I've ever seen for describing the Soviet computing and internet development has always just been a lazy "well it wasn't innovative like silicon valley" It depends on the decade and if we're are talking about the Soviet Union, keeping in mind that Warsaw Pact countries also had their own trajectories and specifics, like the article mentions. By the 1970s the Soviets themselves realized they wer…

the decision to concede and start copying computer systems designed by the "evil capitalists" likely wasn't done lightly.

It's not really how the Soviet Union operated, this sort of "technology transfer" was fundamental to Soviet development from the start. It was so ingrained in Soviet leadership that it was sometimes counterproductive - one famous example is Beria's insistence on strictly following the atomic bomb designs lifted from the Manhattan project which probably didn't make the bomb makers' jobs any easier. A down-to-the-last-rivet replica of the B-29 was also not what Tupolev would have done without orders from the top.

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#42

Post by rdtsc »

pvg wrote: post #41
rdtsc wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every other treatment I've ever seen for describing the Soviet computing and internet development has always just been a lazy "well it wasn't innovative like silicon valley" It depends on the decade and if we're are talking about the Soviet Union, keeping in mind that Warsaw Pact countries also had their own trajectories and specifics, like the article mentions. By the 1970s the Soviets themselves realized they wer…

the decision to concede and start copying computer systems designed by the "evil capitalists" likely wasn't done lightly. It's not really how the Soviet Union operated, this sort of "technology transfer" was fundamental to Soviet development from the start. It was so ingrained in Soviet leadership that it was sometimes counterproductive - one famous example is Beria's insistence on strictly following the atomic bomb…

> It was so ingrained in Soviet leadership that it was sometimes counterproductive - one famous example is Beria's insistence on strictly following the atomic bomb designs lifted from the Manhattan project which probably didn't make the bomb makers' jobs any easier.

That's because because they had realized they were behind already. And it's not like the Americans and the Soviets were going to open their nuclear bomb blueprints so they world got to laugh at the copy-cat design.

> It's not really how the Soviet Union operated, this sort of "technology transfer" was fundamental to Soviet development from the start.

As far as computers went in the 1950s and 1960s the Soviets initially did pretty well. Their BESM-1 machine was the fastest in Europe for some years. They even had revolutionary designs like the Setun with its famous ternary logic. So they had the brains and the capability do build them. But due to planning and political hubris they lost their lead.

But once they were behind it was considered better to copy than not have the technology at all, but yes, those were made by political appointees and people who did not listen or take the scientists' or engineers' opinions seriously.

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#43

Post by gessha »

thriftwy wrote: post #6

One of the first Sovirt Union's general purpose computers, the MESM[1], was built in some pre-revolutionary mansion outside Kiev. Romania also had significant semiconductor industry and DDR too, such as Kombinat Mikroelektronik "Karl Marx" Erfurt. I'm disappointed the article is so eager to tag late communist Bulgaria "repressive". The same myopic vision where Bulgaria can be of no significance, but also where social…

The Soviet electronics manufacturing and the politics around it were very interesting. Somebody else in the thread recommended the Asianometry video, go watch it.

As for repressions, intellectuals getting censored, assasinated even [1].

Turkic and Roma populations getting forcibly assimilated [2].

Numerous personal accounts of asset seizure and blatant corruption among party members.

Is that repression to call it out or just enough to fall below the threshold?

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Markov

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todor_Zhivkov

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#44

Post by pvg »

rdtsc wrote: post #42
pvg wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the decision to concede and start copying computer systems designed by the "evil capitalists" likely wasn't done lightly. It's not really how the Soviet Union operated, this sort of "technology transfer" was fundamental to Soviet development from the start. It was so ingrained in Soviet leadership that it was sometimes counterproductive - one famous example is Beria's insistence on strictly following the atomic bomb…

> It was so ingrained in Soviet leadership that it was sometimes counterproductive - one famous example is Beria's insistence on strictly following the atomic bomb designs lifted from the Manhattan project which probably didn't make the bomb makers' jobs any easier. That's because because they had realized they were behind already. And it's not like the Americans and the Soviets were going to open their nuclear bomb…

The point is that they didn't suddenly realize they were behind and on such occasions looked to imitate foreign technology, shamefaced and with great ideological trepidation, as you were suggesting. This was fundamental Soviet policy from the get-go, the Soviet state would not have survived without it and Soviet leadership recognized that.

It was obvious they were copied.

Obvious to whom counts. It's not like every Lada came with a 'licensed from Fiat' sticker on the bumper. "Half the cars on the street" tells you a great deal about how much the Soviets cared about the visibility and appearance of copying things to the world at large.

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#46

Post by farmdve »

Before the 90s, Bulgaria was manufacturing almost everything, it had its problems, but it functioned from what we've been told. Afterwards every single factory was shuttered, sold to individuals for the equivalent of a dollar. After the borders were opened up, we experienced a huge outflow and all the smart people left.

We are now a fast shrinking country, poor and even today the political scene is a joke.

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#48

Post by rdtsc »

pvg wrote: post #44
rdtsc wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was so ingrained in Soviet leadership that it was sometimes counterproductive - one famous example is Beria's insistence on strictly following the atomic bomb designs lifted from the Manhattan project which probably didn't make the bomb makers' jobs any easier. That's because because they had realized they were behind already. And it's not like the Americans and the Soviets were going to open their nuclear bomb…

The point is that they didn't suddenly realize they were behind and on such occasions looked to imitate foreign technology, shamefaced and with great ideological trepidation, as you were suggesting. This was fundamental Soviet policy from the get-go, the Soviet state would not have survived without it and Soviet leadership recognized that. It was obvious they were copied. Obvious to whom counts. It's not like every L…

> The point is that they didn't suddenly realize they were behind and on such occasions looked to imitate foreign technology, shamefaced and with great ideological trepidation,

Bashir Rameev and Victor Glushkov disagreed from https://www.sigcis.org/files/SIGCISMC2010_001.pdf

They wrote that:

> Copying foreign work excludes the possibility of utilizing our own collective experience of computer research, and in the immediate future, will hinder our ability to employ new principles. This will bring the development of computer technology in our nation to an end

They wanted to co-develop a new system with ICL. But you're right, the political and military leaders where the ones wanting to quickly copy the IBM-360 to catch up.

> Obvious to whom counts. It's not like every Lada came with a 'licensed from Fiat' sticker on the bumper.

They did a better one, and renamed a whole city where the cars were built after the Palmiro Togliatti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolyatti

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#49

Post by neals »

farmdve wrote: post #46

Before the 90s, Bulgaria was manufacturing almost everything, it had its problems, but it functioned from what we've been told. Afterwards every single factory was shuttered, sold to individuals for the equivalent of a dollar. After the borders were opened up, we experienced a huge outflow and all the smart people left. We are now a fast shrinking country, poor and even today the political scene is a joke.

Love the wine though. Had an amazing trip through the amazing wine country last summer. Such beautiful scenery.

Re: The Bulgarian Computer's Global Reach: On Victor Petrov's "Balkan Cyberia"

#50

Post by mrtksn »

farmdve wrote: post #46

Before the 90s, Bulgaria was manufacturing almost everything, it had its problems, but it functioned from what we've been told. Afterwards every single factory was shuttered, sold to individuals for the equivalent of a dollar. After the borders were opened up, we experienced a huge outflow and all the smart people left. We are now a fast shrinking country, poor and even today the political scene is a joke.

If everything was great why people brought down the system? Is it maybe because everything worked thanks to having customer(the USSR) for ideological reasons and not because it was actually competitive or good? Maybe this was the reason why the factories and everything shut down when USSR was gone?

IMHO the ideological markets are very dangerous, gives you the wrong feedback on your output and makes you completely reliant.

USSR pumps oil, digs minerals and uses the income from that to purchase stuff from Bulgaria not because Bulgaria is the best(it might have been the best or very good at one point) but because politics. Then Bulgaria doesn't have proper feedback and instead of investing to advance its computer business keeps doing the same when the west with their real markets leaps ahead. Then one day the only customer who bought Bulgarian stuff for ideological reasons is gone and Bulgaria finds out that they don't have any customers anymore because they didn't invest in advancing their tech because they didn't need to.

Unfortunately, the west today has a similar problem of ideology based markets but its nowhere nearly as bad as the situation in Communist Bulgaria.

One argument might be, if the system worked why wouldn't keep doing it? Because its again very dangerous. If the USSR survived and Bulgaria was kept being the tech powerhouse of USSR with a few nodes behind the state of the art, Bulgaria might have been compelled to send the troops for the invasions USSR might have started because that's how empires work(Bulgarian economy collapsing the moment Russia decides not buying from Bulgaria since it disobeys). Notice that the Russian soldiers in Ukraine come from far eastern regions of the Russian federation, that would have been the fate of Bulgaria today.

Post reply on HN