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Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

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Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#41

Post by cletus »

Great post. I have an awful lot of respect for Zed Shaw and what he's done (and, no, not for "Rails is a Ghetto" but for his directed learning programming books, which IMHO are probably the best approach for newcomers).

I'm disappointed that Jeff has taken what is essentially an elitist and exclusionary view. Programming is not a zero sum game. Every new programmer isn't a threat to your livelihood and your existence (unless, you know, you suck at your job).

There's a lot of wisdom in the last two paragraphs. Another facet of this is those (typically young) programmers who treat any criticism of their ideas to criticisms of themselves as people (of course this isn't unique to programming).

You need to get over that as it is an impediment to becoming more proficient at your chosen craft. Your work isn't your identity. Don't treat it as such.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#42

Post by rmATinnovafy »

I've always believed that one should not use labels. They are self imposed limits.

Writing computer programs is not something out of the ordinary. Sure, it is applied math, but it is not quantum physics.

I want people to learn. The more people know to code, the more innovation we will all enjoy.

There is a generation that is growing up with the power of computing. This is a first in history. We (as a race) will be able to do so many things thanks to it.

But we need people to learn. Good/bad code, its all the same. All it matters is that the ideas are implemented.

Great post Mr. Shaw. I've always looked up tp you, as a person and coder. Thank you.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#43

Post by octopus »

mb_72 wrote: post #31
octopus wrote: post #6

Great post. You should never identify yourself with what you do. You could do anything you want if are passionate about something, ignore everyone claims you can't.

Sure you can do anything you want, but the better you are at something: a) the more enjoyable and rewarding it is for you AND b) the more efficiently you can generate something useful for others; with any activity, there is an opportunity cost That said, learning coding is self-limiting activity; those who enjoy it and have a knack for it will continue, those that don't will stop. My only concern, which is a general…

When I start learning programming I was "completely non-technical" too. Give your non-technical friend a few years and you will see what she can do if she is really interested in making games.

I bet you were in the same situation at some point in your life.

If you want to give her a constructive advice tell her that she can use JavaScript with Unity3D for e.g. I bet you will be amazed at how productive one can became when one is passionated about something.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#45

Post by demetris »

zedshaw wrote: post #25
adir1 wrote: post #12

Actually, my feeling is that you misunderstood Jeff. He makes a great point - we can't all be programmers, world needs people with all kinds of skills.

I'm sure he'll write a follow-up clarifying what he said so that he's not guilty of saying anything.

That’s the trick.

You say one thing, then say another thing. The other thing kind of negates the first thing you said, so, by repeating the recipe, in a short while you have said everything about your topics and you have also said nothing.

Not all writers are like that of course.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#46

Post by rohit89 »

I really don't see what the fuss is all about. It is just like any other field. Programming is not an easy task. People are not suddenly going to turn into a Linus, a Knuth or a Guido. IMO if you feel threatened because more people are learning to code, you're probably not good enough in the first place.

Additionally, since when have people listened to what you should or shouldn't do? Just because Jeff says that you shouldn't code won't stop the ones who really want to. The inverse is true as well.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#47

Post by pg »

zedshaw wrote: post #19
vibrunazo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all the posts pointing what Jeff's flaw in logic was. The one post attacking his person instead, saying he's just a mindless bully that should be ignored. Is the most insightful?

Yes, because that's how life goes. I'm not going to attack the logic of an article that is illogical, I'm going to talk about the hypocrisy of the person writing it. The human stuff matters much more than the fantasy world of "logic".

I'm not going to attack the logic of an article that is illogical

It seems to me that is the exactly the type of article you'd want to attack in that way.

If you won't attack arguments with faulty logic on logical grounds, and you can't (correctly) attack arguments with correct logic on logical grounds, that implies you can never refute anyone logically, and that all your arguments will be ad hominems and suchlike.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#48

Post by benatkin »

vibrunazo wrote: post #30
zedshaw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because that's how life goes. I'm not going to attack the logic of an article that is illogical, I'm going to talk about the hypocrisy of the person writing it. The human stuff matters much more than the fantasy world of "logic".

I really hope you're speaking out of temporary rage. Please review this comment once you cool off.

He isn't insulting Jeff as a person, nor is he even accusing him of deliberately being a hypocrite. He's just accusing him of a single instance of hypocritical behavior.

Also people who won't listen to Jeff anymore because of this post, or are really angry at him, are likely being hypocritical. He's making the same sort of a mistake as a blogger that many will make as a programmer, especially if we don't discriminate who gets to try their hand at programming. He didn't ship this out to some scary production place where the blogging equivalent of exposing private data for thousands of user accounts might happen. He just blogged it. Likewise, for the most part, new programmers will be limited in the amount of damage they can do.

Edit: I thought the blog post was civil. The talk on twitter isn't civil, though (in fact it seems Zed is the only one of the two who crossed that line). https://twitter.com/#!/zedshaw/status/202473102674894848

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#49

Post by Kilimanjaro »

Like everything in life, only 1 out of 100 will excel at what they do, 90 will drop out before they even start and 20 will become average coders (yeah I suck at math).

But we all have to try even if we fail, the world needs that unique specimen to move us all forward.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#50

Post by jwingy »

The only thing all these counterpoint blog posts are proving is that while programming may or may not be important for everyone to learn in the future, being able to hold and understand cogent arguments most certainly is. I've read at least two blog posts today making counter arguments to points the op wasn't even making (op being Jeff).

I have a feeling a big part of it is the blogger proclivity to make link bait headlines that are somewhat related at best, deceptive at worst, giving rise to knee jerk reactions.

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