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How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

caseyhandmer.wordpress.com

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Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#41
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill Gates has a $1B short position on Tesla. I wouldn't use what Bill Gates is investing in as any indicator of what we should be doing.

Tesla has been on a steady [and IMHO rightful] decline since Jan 3, 2024.

I thought it's widely accepted that the Tesla stock price is heavily inflated relative to the company's actual performance and that Elon Musk is increasingly considered a liability as his vaporware marketing (e.g. the various blatantly misleading claims about the trajectory of FSD capabilities) was a major factor to the stock's growth in the past.

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#42
post #20
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s always interesting to see these ideas on a tech forum. Should we as humanity stop right here? Draw a line in the sand and not do anything new? Maybe we should move backwards, skipping the Industrial Revolution and go back to each individual growing their own food? This is a serious question. What do you propose? Because you are not able to pick and choose what humanity tries out, so shall we stop entirely?

Engineers like to create solutions, not problems.

Prone too at creating solutions to problems that do not exist.

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#43

The problem is that massive amounts of PV is needed to replace existing fossil fuels, so these would be extending the carbon output of coal/natural gas. If AI training is being that power hungry, maybe we shouldn't be doing it ... right now. It's all fueled by speculative VC funding. This isn't a slam dunk economics calculation, certainly no more than regulation to shut this nonsense down would be.

The problem with renewables is that most people talking about replacing fossil with renewables don't understand how the grid actually works.

What we need the most is better storage technologies. PV, wind and hydro are highly variable which means you need something to cover the gaps between production and demand. Gas and coal plants are actually super useful for this because you can literally scale production up or down as needed by increasing or reducing fuel. If you want to eliminate gas and coal, you need a way to store excess energy and release it on demand - and to be able able to do so at the same scale as with fossil.

And nuclear power is actually worse in this regard because you effectively can't turn a nuclear power plant on or off. If it's on, it must remain on because taking it offline can take days and the same goes for turning it back on. But the problem right now is not lack of production but stability. And stability can only be achieved with better storage technologies - or fossil fuels.

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#44

The problem is that massive amounts of PV is needed to replace existing fossil fuels, so these would be extending the carbon output of coal/natural gas. If AI training is being that power hungry, maybe we shouldn't be doing it ... right now. It's all fueled by speculative VC funding. This isn't a slam dunk economics calculation, certainly no more than regulation to shut this nonsense down would be.

That makes sense if PV deployment is limited by supply. But the solar industry is currently limited by demand . You can see it in market news for solar components: "Wafer prices stable-to-soft on market oversupply" https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/03/15/wafer-prices-stable-t... "Wacker Chemie’s sales, earnings fall in tough market" https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/01/30/wacker-chemies-sales-... "China polysilicon pri…

I thought building new solar plants was cheaper than operating existing gas and coal plants. What’s hold up on building solar capacity as fast as we can, saturating demand? Permitting? Capital deployment in utility markets?

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#45
post #31
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s always interesting to see these ideas on a tech forum. Should we as humanity stop right here? Draw a line in the sand and not do anything new? Maybe we should move backwards, skipping the Industrial Revolution and go back to each individual growing their own food? This is a serious question. What do you propose? Because you are not able to pick and choose what humanity tries out, so shall we stop entirely?

> Should we as humanity stop right here? Draw a line in the sand and not do anything new? Maybe someone with the knowledge of hindsight in a few generations will say that, yes, we should stop and draw a line in the sand. We are still used to the idea that we can treat externalities to the systems we build as infinite and boundless, while it is getting increasingly clear that they are not. I am not saying we should st…

There are unaccounted externalities in many areas, but energy use of LLMs isn't one of them - people are paying full market price for the energy of training or using LLMs, that energy cost is large enough so that people care a LOT about it, and make intentional tradeoffs about what is worth it.

And if people vote with their wallets that they are willing to pay for a years worth of energy on training LLMs on cat pictures, we should respect their choice that apparently this is what they consider a valuable use of the limited resources they have.

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#46
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense if PV deployment is limited by supply. But the solar industry is currently limited by demand . You can see it in market news for solar components: "Wafer prices stable-to-soft on market oversupply" https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/03/15/wafer-prices-stable-t... "Wacker Chemie’s sales, earnings fall in tough market" https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/01/30/wacker-chemies-sales-... "China polysilicon pri…

I thought building new solar plants was cheaper than operating existing gas and coal plants. What’s hold up on building solar capacity as fast as we can, saturating demand? Permitting? Capital deployment in utility markets?

It's not a replacement for the cost of operating existing gas and coal plants; building up new solar capacity enables you to burn less gas or coal at the times when the sun is shining and thus cut its fuel costs, but it does not enable you to shut down the plant and cut any its other operating costs, because you still need the same capacity for e.g. winter evenings when at peak daily consumption there is zero sunlight.

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#47
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense if PV deployment is limited by supply. But the solar industry is currently limited by demand . You can see it in market news for solar components: "Wafer prices stable-to-soft on market oversupply" https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/03/15/wafer-prices-stable-t... "Wacker Chemie’s sales, earnings fall in tough market" https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/01/30/wacker-chemies-sales-... "China polysilicon pri…

I thought building new solar plants was cheaper than operating existing gas and coal plants. What’s hold up on building solar capacity as fast as we can, saturating demand? Permitting? Capital deployment in utility markets?

In the United States, I think that permitting, interconnection queue backlogs [1], and political efforts to protect legacy coal against cheaper competition [2] are the biggest obstacles.

That said, the US had its best-ever year for solar deployment in 2023, and this year is projected to be even better: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61424

[1] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/grid-interconnection-queue-...

[2] https://montanafreepress.org/2023/06/03/the-battle-for-clean...

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#48
post #34
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is AI not a solution for our problems? I can imagine a declining population, a younger generation, that does not want to reproduce, neither working off the available work. We need a solution for that. So we need systems, that learns human knowledge, refines it, makes it better and takes over all of the work. And for programmers: is sitting not the new cig smoking and drinking alcohol for early death?

How does AI help in solving the issues you brought over in your post? > a declining population, a younger generation, that does not want to reproduce, neither working off the available work. We need a solution for that. And what do you reckon is the reason for that? "Kids these days are lazy and only want to have fun", or something to that extent? Or is that because the cost of living has skyrocketed, the future is u…

> And what do you reckon is the reason for that?

Declining birth-rates seem to happen to every society that passes a certain level of industrialization, with the most well-off and secure in these societies having the fewest kids, and birth rates as a whole declining as more people enter this "totally well-off and secure" demographic. In fact, people in these same late-industrialization cultures who aren't well-off, whose futures remain uncertain, do not experience any decline in aggregate birth-rate at all. Nor do people in societies where nobody is well-off — these in fact tending to be the societies with the highest birth-rates!

The trend in my own observations, from personal experience with both family-wanting "trad" people, and "child-free" people, is that as the self-perceived value and security of your own life goes up, two things seem to shift in your perspective:

1. your subjective resource-commitment bar for bringing a new life into the world grows ever higher proportionally to your available resources (i.e. a millionaire has the intuition that they'll have to allocate a good portion of their millions to any kids they have; a billionaire thinks the same, but now it's a good portion of their billions.) Having kids is always intuitively expensive — but as your own life becomes better and more secure, having kids begins to feel exceedingly, inhibitingly expensive. (Even though it's likely eminently practical for people with 1/1000th your resources, let alone for you!)

2. specifically for women, the act of gestating and raising of a baby grows ever-larger in its subjective potential for negative impact on their (increasingly-highly-valued and de-risked) lives — in terms of both time-cost and risk to their health, career, etc.

Given these trends, here's my hypothesis for what's happening:

We have seemingly evolved to feel driven to reproduce when under a sort of optimum level of scarcity and uncertainty. We feel this drive the most when:

• things are bad enough that you feel your own opportunities for a good life are done and spent — so having kids is your genes' Hail Mary to trying again in 15 years when opportunities could be better; with this lack of further opportunity making the risk to your health and resources of having a kid feel "worth it";

• but things still aren't so bad at the moment, that any kids you conceive would literally starve and not make it to reproductive age themselves.

This heuristic worked just fine for the entirety of human evolution (and perhaps long before that); but it seems to "go wrong" in post-industrial society, for people experiencing no present scarcity or uncertainty. The heuristic wasn't designed to cope with this! It outputs nonsense — things like:

• "you never need to have kids, you'll be immortal, always healthy, and will always have infinite opportunities"

• "the right time to have kids is after you retire, when you'll have time, and also money accumulated to raise them. But of course, only if you can get someone else to carry the baby for you, since you won't have working gonads by then. And only if you can afford a team of nannies and private tutors, since you won't be able to handle the rambunctiousness of a toddler by then."

...both of which, as intuitions, tend to result in people just never having kids — despite often eventually regretting not having had kids. Because, by the time these intuitions shift or resolve positively, it's too late.

This broken intuition about when (or if) you should ever have kids, seems to lead to people also developing very different perspectives on sexual relationships. These "child-free" people — especially women — often seem to experience much lower sexual drive, or even fear of sex for its potential to force an (unwanted) child upon them. And this negative attitude toward sex, secondary to fear of reproduction, often then leads to either strained romantic relationships, or just not bothering with romantic relationships at all.

If you wanted to medicalize all this, you might call it a specific kind of neurosis that humans develop, when they no longer need to do anything much to ensure all their needs are satisfied. It's a compulsion toward catastrophizing all the negative aspects of reproduction, child-rearing, sex, and romantic relationships; and a disconnection from the emotional valence-weight that the positives of these same subjects would normally have.

(And I suspect that this is exactly the framing various societies will eventually take toward this developing "problem" — as I can totally imagine drug companies developing and marketing treatments for "reproductive neurosis", that trick just the part of your brain that cares about that sort of stuff, into thinking you're not well-off and not secure, so that it'll spit out the signals to tell you to feel more positively toward these subjects.)

> Do you really think we'll get some utopian fantasy like UBI?

Yes. Why wouldn't we? As soon as nobody has to labor, UBI is just one global (probably bloody) proletarian revolution away.

There has always been a "so who does the work nobody wants to do, then" blank spot at the end of the Marxist plan, that left all previous Communist revolutions floundering after the "revolution" part.

But "intelligent robots grow all the food autonomously, cook it, and give it out for free, while also maintaining themselves and the whole pipeline that creates their parts, to the profit of no one but the benefit of all — the mechanistic equivalent of Sikh Langar, accomplished at megaproject scale in every country" (and analogous utopias re: clean water, housing, etc) form a set of neat snap-in answers to that blank spot. I have always presumed that these are what AI advocates are vaguely attempting to gesture toward when they imagine AI "taking over all of the work."

Re: How to feed all the power-hungry AI data centers

#49
post #8
post #2

i have a crazy idea... how about... not focusing on ever increasing the size of ai models, so that we don't need to build all those power-hungry ai training datacenters? just a thought

It’s always interesting to see these ideas on a tech forum. Should we as humanity stop right here? Draw a line in the sand and not do anything new? Maybe we should move backwards, skipping the Industrial Revolution and go back to each individual growing their own food? This is a serious question. What do you propose? Because you are not able to pick and choose what humanity tries out, so shall we stop entirely?

“Thou shalt not question”
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