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The Forgiver's Dilemma: Can Letting Go Set You Free?

jyotirgamya.org

41–50 of 57 posts

Re: The Forgiver's Dilemma: Can Letting Go Set You Free?

#41
Forgiveness has a double meaning, two separate but closely related concepts; those being:

(1) Letting go of negative feelings, a "conscious choice to let go of anger and resentment". This meaning of the word happens internally and is separate from what happens externally.

(2) Letting go of boundaries or consequences for those who have wronged you. This is the "not forgetting" part of "forgive but not forget". This meaning of the word happens externally. Some people don't consider it true forgiveness if you don't also let go of the consequences; that is, you must forgive and forget.

I would say (1) is always good. Let go of hate for your own mental health. (2) is more situational, but it's worth talking about explicitly. It's worth determining what exactly "I forgive you" means by talking about how boundaries, trust, and consequences have changed.

Re: The Forgiver's Dilemma: Can Letting Go Set You Free?

#42

I don't really understand forgiveness. Unfortunately many situations are you have 1 chance and if you mess up it there is absolutely no way to reverse the type of relationship that was created. For example if you are wronged as a child from parent. Yes later as an adult you can "forgive" (whatever that means) but then you are not a child anymore, so it is just not the same. You needed that parent as a child as an adu…

Forgiveness isn't like acting like what a person did never happened. It's describing the cessation of the feeling of resentment and anger at being wronged. Depending on how small or large the action is, the wrongful action can be but is not always treated as if it never happened. I can cease being angry at my abusive parents but that doesn't mean I have to engage with them.

That's what you say is the definition of forgiveness, sure.

But is that the definition of forgiveness that everyone else actually has? Clearly enough people have a definition of forgiveness meaning exactly "acting like what a person did never happened", that threads like this become split with people talking past each other.

Re: The Forgiver's Dilemma: Can Letting Go Set You Free?

#43

Forgiveness has a double meaning, two separate but closely related concepts; those being: (1) Letting go of negative feelings, a "conscious choice to let go of anger and resentment". This meaning of the word happens internally and is separate from what happens externally. (2) Letting go of boundaries or consequences for those who have wronged you. This is the "not forgetting" part of "forgive but not forget". This me…

The word forgiveness can mean "enforcing boundaries or consequences on those who have wronged you"? To me that's kind of the opposite of forgiveness.

Re: The Forgiver's Dilemma: Can Letting Go Set You Free?

#44
Terrible blog post which starts with a false dichotomy and a poor shoehorning of forgiveness into the prisoner's dilemma and works backwards from it.

The reason that the prisoner's dilemma is an inappropriate analogy is because it lacks the interpersonal element of one prisoner having mistreated the other prisoner and therein placing strain on it. As I expected, the entire post misses this nuance and completely misses the mark on accurately describing any such situation involving forgiveness. To frame the only two choices as "forgive/hold a grudge" is hyperbolic and childlike. Realistically, it's "get closer/create space." That creates a spectrum of how much space or conversely intimacy each parties want to have with one another. Of course, the blog post misses that dynamic completely in its excitement to apply the prisoner's dilemma to a situation it is inappropriate for.

I think a much better analogy for forgiveness is that trust is like a bank, or credit. It takes a long time to build up credit, but a very short time to destroy it. So it's not impossible to rebuild that trust, but it takes consistent long-term effort from the party that frayed that trust for it to be rebuilt.

And from the point of view from the party who is being asked for forgiveness -- the only appropriate way for them to respond without creating an unhealthy situation is to expect the situations that broke that trust to be rectified long-term. Otherwise, it's their prerogative to create enough distance for there to be safety. What they choose to do with that distance (hold a grudge or not) is up to them, but holding a temporary grudge is a pretty common way to work through the grief process and pathologizing it seems unrealistic and condescending to me.

Holding a permanent grudge seems unhealthy, but I don't think that surprises anyone.

Re: The Forgiver's Dilemma: Can Letting Go Set You Free?

#45

The problem I have with forgiveness is it is antithetical to creating a disincentive for the behavior or action being forgiven. What incentive does a maligned person have to change their behavior if they don't have any consequences?

In the definition being shared above forgiveness is just about letting go of of your intense negative feelings. By this limited definition it means changing how you feel about what happened. You stop carrying around hate and are able to act rationally and if continued punishment for the party that caused you harm is best then your punishment continues but the goal is to reform them not to fix your feelings since those you now control. By this limited definition of forgiveness it does not mean letting the involved party off the hook as one might if you are forgiving a loan. See my other comment about this above.

Re: The Forgiver's Dilemma: Can Letting Go Set You Free?

#46

Forgiveness has a double meaning, two separate but closely related concepts; those being: (1) Letting go of negative feelings, a "conscious choice to let go of anger and resentment". This meaning of the word happens internally and is separate from what happens externally. (2) Letting go of boundaries or consequences for those who have wronged you. This is the "not forgetting" part of "forgive but not forget". This me…

The word forgiveness can mean "enforcing boundaries or consequences on those who have wronged you"? To me that's kind of the opposite of forgiveness.

Rather, letting go of consequences and boundaries. Missed a negative.

Re: The Forgiver's Dilemma: Can Letting Go Set You Free?

#47

To start with, I really enjoyed Veritaseum’s recent take on the “Prisoners Dillema” and Game Theory ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mScpHTIi-kM ). It seems appropriate to mention since it circles around this same “dillema” and even places a numerical value on the value of forgiving in game theory simulations. The historical part and layman’s reduction is good to. I think THIS article undersells the “Hold a Grudge” pa…

>>relationships have a bargaining element? Yes, generally understood to be true in psychology. >>if we forgive, we fear it devalues or weakens our bargaining power I can’t argue your personal experience, but I don’t think this one is major theory or something generally accepted to be true about forgiveness. >>Why else are we so tempted in a debate to rejoin with “yeah, well you do too Because “whataboutism” is just a…

I've always thought describing "whataboutism" as a logical fallacy as misunderstanding the broader picture.

I don't think that most people who use "whataboutism" are actually arguing that the "whatabout" logically negates the adversary, but rather politically negates the adversary. I.e. "you might be right about my behavior, but why should I pay the cost of changing if you don't yourself change".

If it's approached as a political argument rather than a logical one, or rather that the politics are acknowledged, then it's easier to get around it and return to the logic part: e.g. "You're right that there are things I do that might need to change, and I'm willing to talk about that. I'd like to address this first."

There are also reasons to address both things at once as admitting fault early results in ceding bargaining power to the adversary when there's not trust that they'll be as honest in their own assessment once you've been honest with your own.

Re: The Forgiver's Dilemma: Can Letting Go Set You Free?

#48

I don't really understand forgiveness. Unfortunately many situations are you have 1 chance and if you mess up it there is absolutely no way to reverse the type of relationship that was created. For example if you are wronged as a child from parent. Yes later as an adult you can "forgive" (whatever that means) but then you are not a child anymore, so it is just not the same. You needed that parent as a child as an adu…

I have had the same take on this concept of "forgiving another".

I don't believe anyone can "forgive" another, we just don't hold that kind of power over others. We do hold that kind of power over ourselves and can forgive ourselves here.

It's not the power to absolve the "other" that I think we look for, but ourselves. If we forgive ourselves by giving ourselves the grace to understand it wasn't our fault for their bad behaviour and that it does not reflect anything about ourselves, then we have forgiven ourselves for letting someone else make us feel some kind of way and that allowing that feeling, whether anger, resentment, hurt, shame etc. to negatively affect our life. When it comes down to it, the people who hurt us the most are the ones we love the most.

If a co-worker sabotages my job I wont be as hurt as I would be if it were a partner who was stagnating and scared I would leave them behind. I may be briefly upset with the co-worker doing it and move on never working with them or the people they ruined things with again. But someone I loved is so much worse - my job is not to forgive them, they have to do that for themselves if they ever do. My job is to decide if they will stay in my life and then forgive myself for whatever range of emotions I will cycle through. Forgive myself for not spotting the signs or being close with someone like that - if that reflection concludes that I knew something was not right, forgive myself for not having stronger boundaries or working it out before it got to that point. If the above came out of the blue, then forgive myself for the initial loss of power that was given away in feeling betrayed and hurt by someone who showed themselves to not be worthy of that position in our life.

This may be a radical take and comes from a place of experience (not naivety). I believe forgiveness is more about grace for ourselves than it is having some kind of power over another with this magical version of "forgiveness". That version I think is mislabeled as it is more about strategic action (do you hold a grudge or let it slide, which is in your best external interest), than it is about self-grace (forgiving yourself for the weight and range/length of emotions anothers actions caused you and any part you played in it if any, that self-forgiveness will, over time, release it so you may continue on with a lighter load).

Re: The Forgiver's Dilemma: Can Letting Go Set You Free?

#49

The introduction poses a bit of a false dilemma--there's a third, unmentioned choice: 3. Forgive the individual who has wronged you for their past actions, without continuing the relationship. Forgiving someone for a wrong action they've committed is too often conflated with restoring that person to an identical position of trust and closeness in your life. Forgiveness is about letting go of the past--it doesn't mean…

I went through this with an online friend. I understand why they were like they were, but I couldn't let them continue to be that way around me. Years later, we're talking again, and I think it'll be okay this time. It'll never be the same, but at least it's not nothing.

Did you set new parameters for the relationship, and they eventually accepted it?

Re: The Forgiver's Dilemma: Can Letting Go Set You Free?

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgiveness isn't like acting like what a person did never happened. It's describing the cessation of the feeling of resentment and anger at being wronged. Depending on how small or large the action is, the wrongful action can be but is not always treated as if it never happened. I can cease being angry at my abusive parents but that doesn't mean I have to engage with them.

That's what you say is the definition of forgiveness, sure. But is that the definition of forgiveness that everyone else actually has? Clearly enough people have a definition of forgiveness meaning exactly "acting like what a person did never happened", that threads like this become split with people talking past each other.

I mean... dictionary.com??

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive

1 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon forgive one's enemies

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