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Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

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41–50 of 192 posts

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#41
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US handed out $1.8 trillion to individuals and families and $1.7 trillion to businesses during COVID. And then a few years later began experiencing the highest inflation rate in 40 years. And that wasn't even enough money for anyone to live on. I think this needs to be solved before UBI has any chance of working.

It's mainly wealth distribution. The top percent owns too much while the bottom 80% owns too little. There won't be inflation if you take money from the top and give it to the bottom. The total amount of money stays the same.

>It's mainly wealth distribution

No it isn't. The problem is that all these programs never actually end up redistributing wealth, but they always end up redistributing income, usually taken via higher taxes from the already shrinking middle class, leading to further deepening of wealth inequality.

As the super wealthy don't just have a public bank account with billions of $ under their own name, like your grandma, but have their wealth under various assets, entangled corporations, trust funds and non-profits, spread across various tax jurisdictions both on- and off-shore, making their wealth very difficult to track and tax correctly, plus gaming the financial system so that their companies are always billing each other for services till they're running at a loss, never seemingly generate any meaningful profits in their home "high-tax" jurisdictions.

FFS they have entire teams of well paid experts dedicated to these "tax optimization schemes", something the middle class and small business owners can never afford. THIS IS WHY WE HAVE WEALTH INEQUALITY, not because some middle class people earn higher wages after busting their asses in school and university. Just look at IKEA's elaborate tax dodging scheme. [1] Why can't he pay Swedish taxes like all Swedish businesses?

[1] https://www.greens-efa.eu/legacy/fileadmin/dam/Documents/Stu...

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Historically utopians have been far more dangerous.

There's a lot of leeway between advocating for gradual, realistic change and reaching for an impossible utopia.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#43
post #15

UBI's critics expected these programs to have terrible outcomes, where recipients would spend their money on trivialities (or worse: drugs). Instead, what we find is that UBI recipients either spend it on essentials, stuff for their kids children or paying down debt.

[flagged]

I disagree with you, but I upvoted you. It sucks to wade into a discussion like this where you are going to get piled on.

The most effective way for “my side” to win is to convince enough of “your side” to join me. I can only do that through understanding your position. So I appreciate your participating, even when it is unpopular.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#45

UBI's critics expected these programs to have terrible outcomes, where recipients would spend their money on trivialities (or worse: drugs). Instead, what we find is that UBI recipients either spend it on essentials, stuff for their kids children or paying down debt.

> UBI's critics expected these programs to have terrible outcomes, where recipients would spend their money on trivialities (or worse: drugs).

The worst possible outcome is the intended one: where UBI recipients spend it on essentials, and society adapts over time such that a large swath of the population becomes dependent on state-issued subsidies for basic sustenance.

This would create an entrenched concentration of "soft" power that gives centralized political institutions -- and by extension, the factions that control them -- an unprecedented level of top-down control over society, which will invariably leveraged for ulterior purposes.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#48
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US handed out $1.8 trillion to individuals and families and $1.7 trillion to businesses during COVID. And then a few years later began experiencing the highest inflation rate in 40 years. And that wasn't even enough money for anyone to live on. I think this needs to be solved before UBI has any chance of working.

You are attributing to federal fiscal policy what was caused by supply chain dysfunction, housing inventory shortages, and corporate profits. https://www.frbsf.org/research-and-insights/publications/eco... > Global supply chain disruptions following the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic contributed to the rapid rise in U.S. inflation over the past two years. Evidence suggests that supply chain pressures pushed up the co…

>You are attributing to federal fiscal policy what was caused by supply chain dysfunction, housing inventory shortages, and corporate profits.

Would you be shocked to learn the inflation had a number of causes, including the vast COVID stimulus? I mean, your quote above attributes 60%, and that supply chain issues resolving "contributed" to inflation easing.

I'm for UBI if we can figure out how to implement it. We've experimented with it here in Canada. But handing people money has inflationary consequences, it's not rocket science. Otherwise, generic extreme argument: give everyone a billion and we all win.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#49

UBI's critics expected these programs to have terrible outcomes, where recipients would spend their money on trivialities (or worse: drugs). Instead, what we find is that UBI recipients either spend it on essentials, stuff for their kids children or paying down debt.

Didn't we have an experiment with ubi during COVID. Everyone basically got a big check. You can see the huge impact it has on savings. You can draw whatever conclusions you want from that but what I noticed it coincided with is a huge run up in asset prices (especially speculative things like crypto), and to eventually led to broad consumer inflation.

Of course a lot of other money was spent (1 trillion in direct payments and income support respectively out of roughly 13 trillion in total new COVID spending). But I think giving out free money distorts markets in unpredictable ways.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVERT

https://www.covidmoneytracker.org/

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's mainly wealth distribution. The top percent owns too much while the bottom 80% owns too little. There won't be inflation if you take money from the top and give it to the bottom. The total amount of money stays the same.

>It's mainly wealth distribution No it isn't. The problem is that all these programs never actually end up redistributing wealth, but they always end up redistributing income, usually taken via higher taxes from the already shrinking middle class, leading to further deepening of wealth inequality. As the super wealthy don't just have a public bank account with billions of $ under their own name, like your grandma, bu…

> As the super wealthy don't have a public bank account with billions of $ under their own name, but have their wealth under various entangled corporations, trust funds and non-profits, spread across various tax jurisdictions on and off shore, making very difficult to tax.

Report it and have it taxed. A private company can land a rover on the moon but we can't perform ETL operations on asset reporting?

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