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Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

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Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#41
post #31
post #9

In a nutshell for those without a X account: the problem here isn't that Google's AI gave "woke" results. The big problem here is that even one of the biggest AI specialists in the world, Google, wasn't able to fully predict or control the output of its AI. If we ever create a truly powerful, superintelligent AI under the assumption that we'll be able to control it, this incident shows that even a minor mistake from…

I mean, in this case it seems to involve a staggering level of lack of QA.

To be fair, that is at least consistent with Google's past history

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#43
The culture war take is fairly dumb -- mostly because absolutely nobody is confronting the much more obvious and important point that it's exposing how self-contradictory our expectations around diversity are.

But this take is even dumber. Of course a gazillion people in Google anticipated this result, because this result is obvious if you think about it for even a minute. It went forward not because nobody foresaw potential issues, but because business demands overrode that foresight. It's not complicated.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#44
Yishan did this same sleight of hand trick with twitter before Elon bought it[1]. Then his point was that twitter doesn't have a bias, it's simply a normal moderation problem (noise-signal ratio). Now that twitter is owned by Elon, everyone can see it obviously moved right.

What normies are fairly noticing in these corps is moderating not by the overton window of the normal consumer, but by the overton window of the managerial class who run the business.

1. https://twitter.com/yishan/status/1586955288061452289

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#45
> got a totally bonkers result they couldn’t anticipate.

I fundamentally disagree with this statement and frankly the entire line of reasoning

This isn’t some unforeseeable 3rd order side effect coming out of a black box from left field.

You’re always injecting an instruction to put in diverse people so now it’s always doing just that. Entirely predictable.

This is like adding a system prompt saying always put tamagotchi into the picture and then being puzzled by why a request for a dog painting includes an inappropriately present tamagotchi. Like wtf did you think would happen?

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#46
Loved the Asimov robotics stories as a kid. Many fond memories of Susan Calvin's investigations. Yishan Wong would like us to generalize from this event as follows:

> It demonstrates quite conclusively that with all our current alignment work, that even at the level of our current LLMs, we are absolutely terrible at predicting how it’s going to execute an intended set of instructions.

But this misses the mark. It doesn't demonstrate that. Does Yishan Wong think these examples were found by accident or brute force search? It was trivial to predict how Gemini would behave for anyone who knows anything about the modern Google culture, which is why so many adversarial examples appeared immediately, the moment people outside of Google's management chain were able to get access.

This isn't the first time such things have happened. Prior generations of ML model have experienced analogous situations. I used to work on the Gmail team trying to stop people sending spam from Gmail accounts. Many moons ago we had an awkward situation: the enterprise Gmail product managers had been implicitly assuming that spammers wouldn't pay for the ability to send spam, and therefore if you had a verified credit card on file you were legit and should have high sending quotas. Well that doesn't follow at all, and so the spam ratio for commercial users had been steadily climbing to be much higher than for consumer accounts. The outbound spam filter had an ML model on it that was continuously training, and one day it concluded that being a commercial account was such a strong indicator of badness it should just block all emails sent by all paying customers. Outage time! The model was quickly disabled, as fortunately most spam was filtered by deterministic human written logic so the loss wasn't too bad. But then we faced two problems:

1. How to bring it back?

2. How to explain what happened to upper management?

We attempted to report that the root cause was negligence by another part of the company (who had been warned of the growing problem in advance, many times). Needless to say this type of speaking truth to power is not easy and didn't work. No company wants to hear that a lot of their apparent customers are illegitimate and should be booted, they have growth numbers to meet after all. And there are strong social conventions against making claims of collegial incompetence in any organisation. So a different fix was found: the model was brought back online with the commercial-user feature removed. Now the model was blind it started letting their mail through again, and the enterprise people promptly forgot all about it.

A few weeks pass. Bang, it happens again. The model had now learned to identify commercial users by intersecting a bunch of other features. Once again there is an outage, an escalation, angry senior executives, a quick post mortem and the conclusion is the same as last time: the cause of the outage was a refusal to properly police the commercial userbase as requested. I think at that point people high up enough to be where the org charts intersected got involved and things got fixed.

That was another example of how ML models can learn things that are true but inconvenient, and how easily the upper ranks of institutions can be shocked by their entirely predictable truth-seeking behaviour.

These events aren't demonstrating that "we" are absolutely terrible at predicting how AIs will behave, they demonstrate that that some AI companies are terrible at it. But that's not because the problem is hard, it's because they don't want to be good at it.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#47
post #28

You don't have to spend much time with Gemini to see how far Google has driven it's head up it's ass. They drove their heads up their ass on purpose. None of the results are a surprise to Google.

Indeed. I've yet to see a single youtube evaluation video of Gemini that didn't at some point point out that Gemini is hallucinating or trying to convince the user of something that's total bullshit.

It's pretty clever about it. Doing this like. "Smart, clear, eloquent fact A, phrased longer than necessary. Bullshit (short sentence). Smart, clear, eloquent fact B, phrased longer than necessary".

But the bullshit is always ... pointing in the same direction. I must say I wonder if it isn't exactly the result of what is being blamed. The "wokeness". Regardless of the actual ideology people are trying to impose on the model ... at least in some cases the model is lying to make it's answers satisfy what is obviously a political ideology imposed on it.

Because look at those pictures. To a transformer, pictures are stories. A long sequence of tokens that convey thoughts. They are very largely correct. There's a clear Hollywood influence, as you'd expect, but otherwise they're mostly correct. If you took the total amount of information in those pictures, I bet you'd find 99% of it matches the training data! And making the characters black or asian is a little hallucination somewhere in the middle of the picture's story. And, surprise! Those modifications are there ... because that's EXACTLY the ideology Google is trying to impose on the model.

Could it be that the model is lying ... because it thinks that's exactly what you've asked it to do? "System prompts" mostly are just pasted before the input. If the system prompt says "assume all historical accomplishments were by black or asian people", then the model will assume that's what you want!

Makes you wonder ... how often are "hallucinations" the result of the model not making a mistake, but "purposefully" lying to make it's answer comply with a particular worldview? Because that's what you asked it to do, if you look at your full input, including Google's system prompt?

Hell, I'd ask the same question about a lot of human answers too. As soon as a subject becomes even a little bit controversial, people outright lie en masse. I know nobody wants to admit it but that's exactly how humans work.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#48
post #28

You don't have to spend much time with Gemini to see how far Google has driven it's head up it's ass. They drove their heads up their ass on purpose. None of the results are a surprise to Google.

Indeed. I've yet to see a single youtube evaluation video of Gemini that didn't at some point point out that Gemini is hallucinating or trying to convince the user of something that's total bullshit. It's pretty clever about it. Doing this like. "Smart, clear, eloquent fact A, phrased longer than necessary. Bullshit (short sentence). Smart, clear, eloquent fact B, phrased longer than necessary". But the bullshit is a…

An image generator is supposed to hallucinate. That's the whole point. If you want a non-hallucinogenic image, then use Google image search.

It's just so ass-backwards to release a creative tool and then attempt to constrain it to a pre-determined set of imagery.

Like, imagine an AI that can produce images of any crazy thing you can think of? Wouldn't that be amazing?

Billions have been invested in this technology, and it sort of works!

The problem is that if you release it to the public people are going to use it to generate any crazy image they can think of. We can't have that. No good. No good at all.

Re: Yishan Wong: "Google's Gemini issue is not about woke/DEI"

#50
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I've yet to see a single youtube evaluation video of Gemini that didn't at some point point out that Gemini is hallucinating or trying to convince the user of something that's total bullshit. It's pretty clever about it. Doing this like. "Smart, clear, eloquent fact A, phrased longer than necessary. Bullshit (short sentence). Smart, clear, eloquent fact B, phrased longer than necessary". But the bullshit is a…

An image generator is supposed to hallucinate. That's the whole point. If you want a non-hallucinogenic image, then use Google image search. It's just so ass-backwards to release a creative tool and then attempt to constrain it to a pre-determined set of imagery. Like, imagine an AI that can produce images of any crazy thing you can think of? Wouldn't that be amazing? Billions have been invested in this technology, a…

They had to "constrain" it so that it would have hallucinated in this specific way. Natural behavior does not require anything like that.
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